Mastering for television?

[tpad]

....The local cable company picks up the local, on-air signals with consumer grade ATSC converters and antennae, then feeds their modulators with the analogue outputs of those.....

They must be marching to the beat of a different drum in your neck of the woods. Typical high-end cable setups (like Comcast) take the ingested signals (in ASI format) and mux them on a fiber ring for distribution throughout the facility, and then utilize the equivalent of a "Cherry Picker" to pull the desired signal stream off for channelization and output purposes. It's digital all the way, there is no analog in the process.

Furthermore, they don't use consumer grade receivers for off-the-air. Typically Sencore, K-Tech, receivers are used, which have various option modules to output HDSDI video and the MPEG data transport stream in ASI format. So there is no conversion to analog there, either. Multiple stages of signal transcoding can degrade signal fidelity by adding distortion, but should not have any significant effect on amplitude levels if performed properly.

As far as dynamics processing go, I would guess that probably 99.9 percent (or higher) of the public DOESN'T CARE. They just want to turn the TV set on and adjust the volume control ONCE and have everything come out nice and even - period. This whole concept of forcing uncompressed dynamic ranges on the consumer is purely contrived by equipment vendors trying to sell their technology. All the unbiased studies that I've seen suggest to the contrary - that the consumer prefers restricted dynamic ranges. The intelligent thing to do is give them what THEY want, not what YOU want!

[kosmokrator]

Originally Posted by tpad

As far as dynamics processing go, I would guess that probably 99.9 percent (or higher) of the public DOESN'T CARE. They just want to turn the TV set on and adjust the volume control ONCE and have everything come out nice and even - period. This whole concept of forcing uncompressed dynamic ranges on the consumer is purely contrived by equipment vendors trying to sell their technology. All the unbiased studies that I've seen suggest to the contrary - that the consumer prefers restricted dynamic ranges. The intelligent thing to do is give them what THEY want, not what YOU want!

Agree.
Hence, R128 et al.
Thank god.

[Clybourne]

Mastering for US network TV commercials is done during "final mix". The audio is delivered to editors that marry the final cut of the video (with color corrections) to the final mix audio. These mixes are almost always done with plugins, however I did work on a few with hardware when the ad agency was looking for something extra. One example was the hip hop "Five Buck Box" commercial for Taco Bell. It was all beat box and the agency involved needed the track to sound much bigger. I used transformers and tubes to pull more out of it and they were pretty pleased. I even did the FIAT "Get Ready" spot with music by Glitch Mob to tape to give it a nice overdriven sound. But, this isn't the norm for TV.


Royale
Motion Theory – Get Ready

[LaoTzu]

can someone answer the age old question of why tv adverts are louder than programs?

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by LaoTzu

can someone answer the age old question of why tv adverts are louder than programs?

The suits fired all the board ops!

[TinderArts]

Originally Posted by LaoTzu

can someone answer the age old question of why tv adverts are louder than programs?

It is mostly due to the TV shows and movies retaining their dynamic range and the ad houses goosing the gain to the maximum that they can get away with and still be transmitted.

In regard to levels in the US, a reference level of 0 dB on a VU meter (analog console) aligned to +4dBu to -20dBFs on devices such as DigiBeta, etc...

Some facilities use processing (I wouldn't call it mastering) on their outputs from Master Control. One place I worked used a DBMax from TC (think a 5 band Finalizer) to limit outputs to stay broadcast safe before being sent up to the satellite. The settings were such that you would almost never trigger any processing. It was usually a live event that may get limited a touch if the A1 didn't watch their levels well enough.

[kosmokrator]

Originally Posted by LaoTzu

can someone answer the age old question of why tv adverts are louder than programs?

Because the guys paying the bills want is as loud as it's possible.

Then they want it even louder.

Currently, there are even attempts to 'circumvent' R128 by strange/fancy processing.

[TinderArts]

FYI -

[jhg]

That chart is could be a little bit deceiving. In the beginning, dialnorm was measured with the LM100 using dialogue intelligence and the LEQ-A scale, it wasn't a straight dBFS measurement. Now with BS1770 and it's updated variants measurements, it's not a dBFS measurement.

As far as mastering commercials - this is basically what the final mix stage is. These are the really nice places, with all sorts of client comforts that charge a few hundred dollars and hour, and basically do the mastering of the ad and the layback. Ad agency folks go there to be pampered and stuff. I have seen a lot of DB-Max units at these places...They are all using LKFS based meters now, and mixing to spec so no downstream manipulation takes place.

Once the ad leaves the studio, it may face future processing. Most networks prefer to receive assurances from their providers that content will be complaint in order to receive safe harbor for network content compliance. Some networks will process on ingest to their servers - or for tape based content even have hardware processors. This "safe harbor" allows networks to safely say to their affiliates "our content is compliant" Live events will face the most processing, because you can't scale the levels at ingest.

Local stations then have to ensure that their content matches in level with the network material. This is where it gets trickier - not all local stations have the resources to QC all incoming content. This local content is more likely to be produced with varying audio levels. So, local broadcasters sometimes have inserted more aggressive transmission processing to level everything out. I have seen level swings of 20+dB between spots! This requires some serious processing to keep levels even and CALM compliant.

I've had a Dolby LM100 and a TC LM-2 hooked up to my STB for months at various times - and it's really interesting - network level commercials now ARE being mixed to -24+/- 2. It's just that the Loudness Range is so much less than program content. A 30 sec spot will have 0.1dB of LRA, whereas a 7 minute piece of content can, and usually will have more dynamic range. SO the transition boundaries are where the problem lies usually right now. I know of at least one network who advises their sports mixers to mix levels up to commercial breaks.

Sorry for long tirade, I'm in these trenches daily...

[LaoTzu]

i would love a mastering engineer to say no we all hate how loud adverts are. but i guess another guy who needs the cash would take it maybe we should all make a stand?

[Bob Olhsson]

You'll notice that in many cases the announcer is the loudest thing you hear. This is often because it has the least compression distortion!

The idea that repeated stages of compression will make things louder on the air is an urban myth. Distortion accumulates and at some point everything falls apart. Broadcast processors actually turn overly distorted audio down because it can overload the transmitter!

[wado1942]

Yeah, TV stations don't have audio guys anymore. Most of them don't even have master control or camera ops anymore, but to my knowledge, none of them have audio guys. On another forum, a guy asked how the new loudness standards have affected the local TV stations. My reply was that the engineers in my area removed the only remotely usable meters (LM100) in the stations because they are not compliant... so now they just don't have any loudness metering at all. I'm pretty sure nobody knew what those fancy numbers meant anyway. The people who ingest TV spots into the automated servers are told that the levels should read (pick some number on a PPM or digital peak meter). Well, you know that peak meters mean absolutely nothing in terms of loudness, but that's the only metering they have here now. Since the commercials have been compressed and limited already, the same peak on the commercial yields a much higher average level than the non-compressed program material. There's no intentional push for higher levels for commercials, it's just complete ignorance.

[LaoTzu]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

TV was once sort of left alone. No longer. Now the FCC has ruled that TV audio must be the same levels. This was in response to complaints about large volume differences. Here in San Diego, channel 8, CBS is at least 3 db louder than the other networks or local channels.

Under this new FCC ruling, audio must be volume equalized. Now prepare for the law of unintended consequences.

In order to do that, mass compression must be used. Everything is now turned up to match the loudest levels rather than taming those louder sources. TV is as blaring as an alt rock CD, wonderful! Is there anything else left to ruin?

I might have to hook one of my Aphex expanders up to the TV amp, if there is a db or two it can grab it and "un-compress" that audio. It probably won't work like with modern CD's, there's isn't enough to grab onto anymore, mastering guys have done a boo-coo job on those for us.

Maybe in 20 odd years these current releases will be "re-mastered" with a little dynamic range re-inserted? Sort of the opposite of what ME's are doing to older releases today. If I were a modern ME, I would have some self doubts about the quality of the work I'm letting out. It must be quite the compromise for those that once did quality work to now have to put out so much un-listenable crap.

thats interesting so wouldnt the logical thing to be to pull down adverts to tv volume? i always use less is more in my studio applications. i mean some of the mix wuality on tv shows is oustanding. like stuff on big shows like true blood and breaking bad you can hear everything so clearly. it would be a shame that they would have to just boost everything to reach a level of advert crap.

[TinderArts]

Originally Posted by jhg

That chart is could be a little bit deceiving. In the beginning, dialnorm was measured with the LM100 using dialogue intelligence and the LEQ-A scale, it wasn't a straight dBFS measurement. Now with BS1770 and it's updated variants measurements, it's not a dBFS measurement.

Sorry for long tirade, I'm in these trenches daily...

The chart came from broadcastengineering.com.

Thanks for the perspective. I stepped away from TV work around 2001 and much has changed. Where I used to work, DigiBeta decks were the main record and playout machines. The dBmax and Videocipher were always in the chain going from Master up to the bird. Of course the weakest link to me was the Videocipher's 38k sample rate and awful A/D.

[wado1942]

Originally Posted by LaoTzu

thats interesting so wouldnt the logical thing to be to pull down adverts to tv volume? i always use less is more in my studio applications. i mean some of the mix wuality on tv shows is oustanding. like stuff on big shows like true blood and breaking bad you can hear everything so clearly. it would be a shame that they would have to just boost everything to reach a level of advert crap.

Well, come next year, all broadcast material will HAVE to be -23LK. That's lower than what just about everybody is doing now. The problem is, it costs money for proper audio metering and to educate people. That's just not going to happen, considering most TV companies aren't even willing to pay for untrained people. So the most likely thing to happen will be to instal heavy-handed digital AGCs post-master control to crush everything up/down to that level.

[LaoTzu]

Originally Posted by wado1942

Well, come next year, all broadcast material will HAVE to be -23LK. That's lower than what just about everybody is doing now. The problem is, it costs money for proper audio metering and to educate people. That's just not going to happen, considering most TV companies aren't even willing to pay for untrained people. So the most likely thing to happen will be to instal heavy-handed digital AGCs post-master control to crush everything up/down to that level.

well i hope they dont do this on blu ray\dvd releases. because if they do have a different master on series im downloading forever now.

plus i just created a new job with my proposal. altho it seems tv broadcasting doesnt seem to be concerned with quality from what your saying.

[wado1942]

Blu-Ray & DVD already have standards and they're based on the same standards movie theaters have been using for decades. Not everybody follows those standards, but they're in place and very good.
The new standards discussed here are purely for broadcast. It would be SO EASY to do it right and put loudness meters on all the prep stations with the instructions given to the dubbers on how to use them. No processing would be needed anywhere in the chain between the prep stations and the people at home. You'd just have to set the input trim on the prep station so that the total program material meets the standard level. No changes to the quality would be necessary. Unfortunately, TV and Americans especially seem to insist on taking poor band-aid approaches for everything instead of doing it the right way.

[kosmokrator]

Originally Posted by wado1942

Well, come next year, all broadcast material will HAVE to be -23LK. That's lower than what just about everybody is doing now. The problem is, it costs money for proper audio metering and to educate people. That's just not going to happen, considering most TV companies aren't even willing to pay for untrained people. So the most likely thing to happen will be to instal heavy-handed digital AGCs post-master control to crush everything up/down to that level.

I can't speak for the US, but in Germany we now have to deliver 100% of the audio content R128-conform (-23 LUFS +/-1 LU, -1dbTP, sometimes also certain thresholds for momentary and slow) or be rejected by the stations/networks.

So you have to invest in proper metering and educate yourself. If you want to keep the job, that is.