SAE Tech Expo Mastering Panel Recap

[Fulcanelli]

good to know

[Riccardo]

This is all good.

The worrying bit is that we have to do panels to explain the most basic engineering facts.

There are a few hundred threads about those topics here on GS alone. To young engineers the above mentioned basics should be as clear and as obvious as plugging a jack into your guitar or an XLR into a microphone.

I guess most of the "I'll look it up on youtube" generation is in need of serious help in order to produce quality music (and I mean both songwriting, ideas as well as arranging, recording and mixing)

Just a thought, ymmv

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by lostship

-when you send your files to mastering makes sure the master bus has no compression/eq (pretty surprising how many people who can afford top mastering do not know this!!)

That is certainly open to debate. No limiting is one thing, the blanket condemnation of compression, quite another...................

Same with buss-eq. What's the big deal? All mastering is buss-eq.


DC

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by lostship

-Mastering to tape (or vinyl) and back to digital doesn't sound better. Scott from Grundman said producers will request this but the producer decides to not do it after A/B'ing the two.

While I've never gone to lacquer (unlikely it's vinyl, btw) I have tried, and tried, going to tape and it's rarely an improvement. Less than 10% for sure.


DC

[wado1942]

Originally Posted by dcollins

While I've never gone to lacquer (unlikely it's vinyl, btw) I have tried, and tried, going to tape and it's rarely an improvement. Less than 10% for sure.


DC

That's what I've found for certain. Yet, when I mix through my console to tape and computer simultaneously, they always pick the tape for their mix.

[Huntley Miller]

Yes, it's a little bit surprising that they'd recommend not using bus compression. Are you sure that wasn't misinterpreted?

[Dene]

with panels your probably going to get a pretty wide range of people with varying level of abilities so it is probably safer to tell people to minimize what they do on the 2-buss....just my 2cents

[fastlanestoner]

I was in attendance and really enjoyed this weekend's events at SAE. Can't beat the SSMF either! It's always an amazing thing to hear from masters of the craft.

[SASMastering]

The tape thing comes as no surprise (none of it does really) the expectation is too high on a pass to analogue tape. The change can be dramatic and scary to hear for someone close to a well crafted project. If you want the sound of tape record the tracks to tape and I recommend a very high end tape machine that is very well serviced.

It's all common sense. They sure won't want stems if their head and payment is in stereo 2 track mode.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Riccardo

This is all good.

The worrying bit is that we have to do panels to explain the most basic engineering facts.

The more worrying bit is exceptional industry figures are supporting that company. May well have been a great talk, but I'm pretty appalled that my industry colleagues endorse SAE.

[Red Mastering]

Originally Posted by dcollins

That is certainly open to debate. No limiting is one thing, the blanket condemnation of compression, quite another...................

Same with buss-eq. What's the big deal? All mastering is buss-eq.


DC

sometimes comp or eq on the buss of the mix play very important role to the mix, and removing them collapse mix badly...
best idea is to ask client for 2 mix versions
one with processing and one without it,
then you can work with not processed one, aiming at sound created by mixer with his/her processing
but sometimes I simply get to work with processed mix if it sounds great,
maybe mastering engineer doesnt have to use any processing except touch of limiter and dither ?
so i agree with dc fully - this is not a problem

[bmanic]

Originally Posted by dcollins

That is certainly open to debate. No limiting is one thing, the blanket condemnation of compression, quite another...................

Same with buss-eq. What's the big deal? All mastering is buss-eq.


DC

Agreed. I actually get the feeling that mastering engineers who say "don't use any compression or EQ on the master" are slightly pretentious.

I always tell my clients to leave whatever they want on the masterbus, even a limiter at conservative settings (provided that it isn't clipping or doing more than just 1 or 2dB limiting). Whatever it takes to make the song as perfect and final to them as possible.

I want them to send me a mix that they wouldn't be ashamed to put on the disc without any further mastering.

Mixing through a master bus compressor or outboard EQ (or even a plugin EQ with complex analogue modeling) is very common and in my opinion even a desirable thing to do as it helps keep things glued together and increases the vibe of the song. It's especially important if a person is still composing more material while mixing as the compressor will help drive the groove (provided that it's setup correctly).

I also tell them to bring a "clean" mix if they are uncertain of their choices of processing on the masterbus but that they should always include the processed mix as well.

Cheers!
bManic

[Ben F]

Originally Posted by SASMastering

The tape thing comes as no surprise (none of it does really) the expectation is too high on a pass to analogue tape. The change can be dramatic and scary to hear for someone close to a well crafted project. If you want the sound of tape record the tracks to tape and I recommend a very high end tape machine that is very well serviced.

The change isn't dramatic...Many clients and engineers still love their 1/2".

[Alécio Costa]

I have received mixes with an abuse of exciters and emulations like Heat TDM, SSlate, SSL compressors and even T-Racks and L2.

While it may sound pretty fine, people seem to be overdoing their mixes.

When expanded, some mixes end up sounding a bit lifeless, with an inappropriate RMS.

I just request them to go a bit easier with these tools.

At this exact moment I am finishing the mastering of what is the fourth recall of the client´s original file. Fortunately, He realized that his stuff sounds much better without those T-Racks and other mastering tools.

[lostship]

Riccardo,
What I learned about mastering last weekend maybe considered trivial to you but it was really helpful and nourishing to me and my "youtube generation" mind. Why not get involved in another thread where you can contribute something positive?

dccollins,
Scott from Grundman mastering said "vinyl" maybe he meant "Lacquer"

Concerning tape:
Scott from Grundman mastering said that sometimes artists will present them with a digital version and analog tape version of the mix and it's about 50/50 what they choose. He said that if it was mixed through a board and other analog gear, going to analog tape is a great choice.

Concerning master bus limiting/eq:
All of the mastering engineers had horror stories of getting songs that were digitally clipping, I think that has inspired them to unanimously say "nothing is better" for the master bus.

[lostship]

Originally Posted by Riccardo

The worrying bit is that we have to do panels to explain the most basic engineering facts.

There are a few hundred threads about those topics here on GS alone. To young engineers the above mentioned basics should be as clear and as obvious as plugging a jack into your guitar or an XLR into a microphone.

I guess most of the "I'll look it up on youtube" generation is in need of serious help in order to produce quality music (and I mean both songwriting, ideas as well as arranging, recording and mixing)

Just a thought, ymmv

Hey Riccardo,
Sae is a school and the panel was part of an open house for the school. The audience consisted of potential students to the school.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by bmanic

.... I always tell my clients to leave whatever they want on the masterbus, even a limiter at conservative settings (provided that it isn't clipping or doing more than just 1 or 2dB limiting)......
bManic

In my opinion, and many others opinion... you rarely want to have 2 peak limiters on the mix.

And you do NOT want to peak limit before it gets to the mastering engineer for mastering.

[bmanic]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

In my opinion, and many others opinion... you rarely want to have 2 peak limiters on the mix.

And you do NOT want to peak limit before it gets to the mastering engineer for mastering.

I disagree. It all depends on the track. If somebody NEEDS a crappy waves L2 or similar to get a certain kind of glue/punch/whatever so that the mix works as intended, then I can't ask the client to take it off the track.

The point is: These are aesthetic reasons, not technical. I'm mastering to serve the music, not impose my subjective opinion over the composer/producer's opinion. If think something works better musically without it then of course I will let them know but very often if a mix has been created, running through a masterbus processor from the beginning, it is impossible to remove it without drastically changing the balances of the mix and the groove of the song.

Indeed, it's very often a matter of groove. Recreating the perfect groove that was achieved in the mix is very hard. In fact, it's in my opinion the hardest thing in mastering. You very easily end up killing the groove, especially when a client asks for a loud master.

It's also one of the main things a mastering engineer can add to a track, together with a balanced frequency response. Good use of a compressor can give the song more excitement and groove but it's very hard to duplicate the exact movement that the client had in his original mix if you tell him to remove the compressor (or limiter). I have a feeling that some people love the Waves L2 due to it's slow 2nd release which is very natural in a way.. it creates a groove where there was none (or turns everything into mush ).

Cheers!
bManic

[Riccardo]

Originally Posted by lostship

Hey Riccardo,
Sae is a school and the panel was part of an open house for the school. The audience consisted of potential students to the school.

Yes I know SAE quite well from the beginning so I am aware of quite a few things. As I said it is all well.
My comment was just referred at a few things popping in here and there in threads. Just as an example "labeling" materials. Something that should be a given even outside the audio world, still we receive bad labelled/named files and tapes. This is something you would learn even before being allowed to touch an XLR.

Regarding bus compression and eq these topics have been discussed forever. These topics are here of you do a search. Still good to have panels but the info is here at your disposal if you make an effort and search for it.

I would also assume in this time and technological age a potential student would have an idea of recording mixing and bus compression and equalisation. He or she may have not acquired the experience to compress and eq a mix from the get go yet but an idea of the how, pros and cons of the process definitely yes.

And if he or she has it than I'd assume all that comes before mixing would be an acquired knowledge if not practice. After all if you wanted to build your own car your natural curiosity would lend towards chassis and engine before asking yourself how to get to bodywork.

Again my message is: panels are good, you can always learn something new from anybody, famous or unknown that it may be.

What I have been trying to stress here on GS over the years is:

Most of the youtube engineering generation seems to falling into the "I believe everything they want me to watch and believe" trap.

You have the technological resources (internet amongst others): learn to discriminate between crap/garbage and proper knowledge.
Go do some research work, nowadays much easier than it was for us back then.

Talk to people (online, offline whatever works). You don't get to be there, but you don't have to swipe the floor and clean the toilets either. It goes without saying that if you can land an internship that would be best.

In other words laziness is spreading at an alarming rate. Half of the questions from newbies here are legit ones, the other half are just people wanting something else to tell them how to do something because they cannot be bothered to the research, find out and practice.

[Riccardo]

Going quickly back to the mix eq and compression. If the mixer uses mix eq and compression then fine by me. I assume it is part of their sound.

I something came in sounding really bad, unbalanced , distorted than it would be obvious the engineer probably didn't have much experience..........

On a side note I guess learning to mix through a bus compressor and or equaliser is part of a serious mixer skill set even if you decide not to use it in the end.

[Ben F]

Originally Posted by Riccardo

Going quickly back to the mix eq and compression. If the mixer uses mix eq and compression then fine by me. I assume it is part of their sound.

I something came in sounding really bad, unbalanced , distorted than it would be obvious the engineer probably didn't have much experience..........

On a side note I guess learning to mix through a bus compressor and or equaliser is part of a serious mixer skill set even if you decide not to use it in the end.

Exactly. I've never had a pro mix that used T-Racks for example, and most pro mixers have more than enough experience to know if bus compression/limiting is doing more harm than good. I get the feeling that more amateur home studio people may be sending their mixes for mastering without real experience. I personally learn more from my clients, rather than having this 'mastering engineer knows all' attitude.

[acorneau]

Originally Posted by Ben F

I get the feeling that more amateur home studio people may be sending their mixes for mastering without real experience.

I can attest to that.

[Riccardo]

Originally Posted by acorneau

I can attest to that.

Yes my point is that nobody is born experienced. Unfortunately in order to get it we have to work hard. This is the bit that doesn't go down well with some.
Get me? You get me?

[lostship]

I thank the the Lord that laziness abounds, it makes it easier for me to carve out a niche of clients.