Loudness Wars - The Answer??

[Wilde]

This is something I l slapped together last night.
Doesn't look so hot this morning though. Mmmm.

I thought it would be best to keep it simple, to the point and
non-aggressive. I thought about "normal volume" or something to
that effect but no self respecting rock or metal artist would
want that on their cd ever.

"High dynamics" overcomes that hurdle of coming across as lame.


Let me know what you all think.


Thanks.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Wilde

This is something I l slapped together last night.
Doesn't look so hot this morning though. Mmmm.

I thought it would be best to keep it simple, to the point and
non-aggressive. I thought about "normal volume" or something to
that effect but no self respecting rock or metal artist would
want that on their cd ever.

"High dynamics" overcomes that hurdle of coming across as lame.


Let me know what you all think.


Thanks.

I'm still looking for that elusive phrase, but "high dynamics" doesn't cut it for me. The "Turn it up" campaign is about the closest I've come to a slogan for consumers, but it still doesn't light a fire under my ass.

[jaysunice]

Interesting, but like Bob said, definitely lacking a fire -- somebody will get it right eventually and what a wonderful day that will be.

[trilliumsound]

ATTENTION! This CD has to be played LOUD!

[cerberus]

...because people will want to play it loud; i don't need to tell them anything.
afaiac, the music is better if the listeners are totally unaware of me. my job is to be invisible to them, i'm in no position to make demands.

jeff dinces

[yeloocproducer]

I like it. High Dynamics sounds like some sort of vintage 70s audiophile catch phrase. But unfortunately it's going to sound "old" to a lot of teenagers who are buying the records :(

[Bob Olhsson]

The first Paul Butterfield Blues Band album was labeled something to the effect of "For maximum musical pleasure, play this album LOUD!"

[Samc]

Originally Posted by cerberus

.......afaiac, the music is better if the listeners are totally unaware of me. my job is to be invisible to them, i'm in no position to make demands.

jeff dinces

The most sensible attitude here if you ask me. It would seem that in order to increase the importance/revelance of themselves an services, some mastering engineers are intent on injecting more of themselves into the (record making) process than necessary.

But hey.......some actually think they're artists.

[cerberus]

Originally Posted by Samc

The most sensible attitude here if you ask me. It would seem that in order to increase the importance/revelance of themselves an services, some mastering engineers are intent on injecting more of themselves into the (record making) process than necessary.

But hey.......some actually think they're artists.

i do think mastering is an art. i think our job is to improve the music, otherwise the world wouldn't need mastering any more. for me that can involve some lateral thinking, breaking rules, experimenting with out of the mainstream theories in my spare time. however, the signature sound that i am working so hard to develop is intended to inject more of the music into the record and nothing else.

i appreciate our mutual respect for the art we are working on, but i would like to change your mind on creativity in mastering...do you think alan blumlein (inventor of stereo techniques e.g. m/s recording and processing...) was a creative genius? i do. (the blumlein-derived techniques i use in mastering help me deliver more of the musical dna from the source and the mix to the listener, imo.)

i think many audio engineers are creative too. some invent their own stereo processes, some do continuous research on dithers and make their own, some make filters or speakers...etc...some deny that they are creative, but i see examples anyway... who first employed a convolution reverb? i would consider it to be a creative invention, probably theories were proposed before it was able to be done, and is still being refined; so no one engineer deserves all the credit. who invented parametric eq? (george massenberg co-invented it, afaik) creative genius? i think so. who told steve albini to run a tape bacwards through a compressor? maybe he was not creative for doing it, (he thinks not) but whoever did it first perhaps was. the reason mr. albini gives for using this trick is to make the recording seem more transparent to the source.

those are just a few examples of why i think creativity in the context of mastering doesn't have to mean "mucking around". of course if you are already successful in a job doing almost nothing to a signal other than altering the level and a touch of eq, then i am not suggesting you change.

jeff dinces

[Samc]

Jeff, I don't want to hijack the thread, but I'll say this; being inventive or creative does not automatically make you an artist. As much as I understand and appreciate the potential of a good mastering job, In really don't believe mastering engineers to be any more artistic than say picture framers.

In any case I consider this is a lot less important than mastering engineers who seem to want to change their clients art into some kind of personal soapbox.

[cerberus]

true, but we need to sell ourselves.

some mix engineers think they can do it themselves...or try, or throw something on the 2 bus because, hey a little mastering helps any mix. then if our hands get tied from that, we are less effective and it further supports their notion that we are largely extraneous now that demand for vinyl is low.

imo this scenario reflects typical attitudes nowadays towards mastering especially on project studio recordings, where there is a lot of money to be made, it's just not concentrated.

i think we need to find a way to justify our purpose that doesn't imply insulting the music..or the smaller fish will disappear into the sea anyway. which is somehow what i think a certain group wants....their positions would be threatened, imo if we formed a consensus as an industry to make top shelf mastering more accessible to the average musician.

sam, it's not a hijack to me... i think it's slightly volatile because it gets closer to the heart of what our agendas are here. mine is to help people improve because i want to swim in a more respectable pond than our industry tends for us at the moment. i think to do this we first need to show some pride in our work...maybe not use it as a soapbox, but imo we've got to have more to show for ourselves that the average potential client can understand. why should they spend money on mastering at all? this question keeps coming up...imo it shouldn't be an issue.

for m.e.s who bill under seven figures per annum. no major label wants to talk to us, no major mastering house want to talk to us; one could have the best chops on the planet and best gear too, they could love your work and still it would not help....that is the status quo; as i see it; always was that way..but if it doesn't change, i think our profession might die.

jeff dinces

[TheReal7]

Originally Posted by bob katz

I'm still looking for that elusive phrase, but "high dynamics" doesn't cut it for me. The "Turn it up" campaign is about the closest I've come to a slogan for consumers, but it still doesn't light a fire under my ass.

so we can agree that more dynamics = more musical and less dynamics = less musical....so dynamics = music. How about "Maximum Music" The CD contains maximized music for your listening pleasure.

All the Johnny Nose Blows out there will this its cool

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by TheReal7

so we can agree that more dynamics = more musical and less dynamics = less musical....so dynamics = music. How about "Maximum Music" The CD contains maximized music for your listening pleasure.

By all means keep on trying. The best slogan just might work, but I don't think "maximum music" communicates the stuff as much as "turn it up" but even I don't like "turn it up".... I've tried, haven't found anything I like yet.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Samc

In really don't believe mastering engineers to be any more artistic than say picture framers.

So on Monday when I'm mixing I'm an "artist" and on Tuesday when I'm mastering I've become a "picture framer"? To be a good mastering engineer you really have to understand music, sound, and tonality, and be entirely empathic with the art of the artist and the recording. I call that being artistic. Add in a bushel of creativity, which INCLUDES knowing when to stop and what NOT to do, and you have art.

Knowing and understanding the tonality of every musical instrument and venue? Is that art, or picture framing?

You know, years ago I joined in a discussion that asked whether a harmonica player was as good a musician as a concert violinist. The answer is: YES. It may take the violinist 10 years or more to develop his tone, so it is far more of a difficult instrument to master, but when you examine the beauty and musicality of someone like a Toots Thielmans, who has devoted 40-50 years to his music, he is an artist, as much of an artist as Itzhak Perlman (who can't play jazz, by the way).

If you sat in on some of my sessions and quizzed the musicians I work with, they'll all tell you that I am an essential part of helping them to realize their art.

Honestly, if this thread turns into a debate (it's already been hijacked :-), I don't need to further participate. As far as I'm concerned, Samc is ill-conceived and must have met up with a lot of hacks. There are hack musicians, hack artists, hack engineers, and hack mastering engineers....

[TheReal7]

yes...but you (and I) are not the 'hip young crowd'. I think it just might be simple enough to work. Turn It Up! Right to the point and unmistakable. With today's youth, you have to keep it simple.


I'll throw a few out there:
"Feel the music"
"Exercise that knob"

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by TheReal7

yes...but you (and I) are not the 'hip young crowd'. I think it just might be simple enough to work. Turn It Up! Right to the point and unmistakable. With today's youth, you have to keep it simple.


I'll throw a few out there:
"Feel the music"
"Exercise that knob"

Hmmmm... take a vote... "Turn it up" is quick and easy to remember, it, like any other slogan, requires an organization behind it, press releases, explanations, etc.

Everyone in the world knows "Dolby system" though most people have no idea what it does. See what marketing and a simple name does for you? Speaking of Dolby, how would you like to be the ONLY guy in the world whose name appears ABOVE the artists on the marquee!

[Samc]

Originally Posted by bob katz

...........As far as I'm concerned, Samc is ill-conceived............

I should speak to my parents about this.

This won't turn into a debate, at least not with me, (this dead horse has been beaten enough), but here is some food for thought.

CD's won't stop being loud until the artists (for whatever reason) decide that they should make them less loud. No catchy, rhetorical phrase, is going to stop it, only the artist can and will stop it!

By the way, I don't think that when you're mixing you're an artist either.......obviously the result of all my hack encounters.

[Ged Leitch]

Not hopping on the *Mastering as an art* subject but...

Mixing most definitley IS and art form, jeez, yes primarily it's a SKILL,
but it's also part of a *Creation* process, from a bunch of musicians bashing out some chords in the live room, to the creation of a cohesive and Pleasing to listen to sound.
To me, the steps invloved in getting *There* require decisions based on technical skill and experience, but also , they involve *Artistic* decisions that are the staple of the guy or gal who is the mix engineer.

In the end, *Art* or *Technician* , it's all just names IMO.

[yeloocproducer]

I'm with Katz on this one. Composing, tracking, mixing, mastering, etc. are all creative acts and any elitist "arteeesst" comments should be acknowledged as such. Just because the mix/ mastering engineer isn't stoned writing lyrics in the corner of the room doesn't mean that his creative process/ artform is any less profound or important than anybody else's. It takes an emotional response as well as technical knowledge and experience to find a creative approach to making a record sound the best it can.

Just a thought- maybe some of the comments in this thread are being made by people with their own internal conflicts about their creativity. All of the talented artists I've worked with have an incredible respect for the mixing and mastering engineers and acknowledge their artistic and creative contributions to the project. Game recognizes game.

[NeoVXR]

dynamics need some kind of patience. the listener must open his/her mind to the low volume and feel what is inside there. this requires inner and outer silence also.
( + with a window open and and a busy street outside, booming car stereos, you want your own speakers the loudest.)
then the listener must be prepared to the hot parts, anticipate, look forward etc.

remember haydn with the "symphony mit dem pauken schlag" (timpani hit).
this was actually shocking when performed the first time. then it became literally a "hit".

young minds want everything hot and at once. some are even afraid of silence.
the loudness war is very much a matter of market segments.

[Lynn Fuston]

Bob,

Ten years on and we're still flogging the same mule. When are we going to give up?

[heathen]

"TRU-WAVE" and slogan "Tru-ly Amazing audio" or "Wave goodbye to the harshness". Side note "Knob adjustment may be required" or as not to confuse any teenagers "Volume adjustment may be required, mastered to audiophile standards".
Few if any listeners would give a toss to know that all this means is no undue use of loudness maximisers.

Also why the hell is anyone who thinks music production ,mixing or mastering is not an art hanging out here in the first place. Picture framer, hell why not just say windscreen washer, what a rediculous comment!

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston

Bob,

Ten years on and we're still flogging the same mule. When are we going to give up?

You mean we should give up? Ten years ago very few people believed me when I said hypercompression was a growing problem, and I was probably branded as an "audiophile". Now everyone knows what I was talking about then and it's REALLY time for action...


By the way, credit Lynn for the invention of the term "hypercompression"


Hi, Lynn!

[heathen]

Good picture Lynn, sums it up.

Well you could treat mastering just like facial piercings, as I'm sure someone who'd have this done, to be truly satisfied by a piercing as such, an extreme amount of pain should accompany this piercing. I mean I was even thinking of getting into doing piercings as it seems a great way to make some moolah.
If people want to pay for pain I would happily agree to help out, I'm not a sadist but practical and try to think logically, I mean even doing piercings would have to be classified as an art of some sort.
Some people seem terrified to have to fork out money for audio work and do it themselves, but I can't see this happening with too many body art advocates, I think most would pass out even trying, e. So many people have a piercing these days it must be a good way to make cash. Just think of it, you get to hurt all your annoying customers and they pay you. Hmmmm actually I think I understand the cause of all this painfull audio now, some people must really like to be hurt. If they want it lets all let em have it.
Maybe the questions ME's should ask is do you want it to hurt or would you like pain relief.

[arf]

Originally Posted by Samc

Jeff, I don't want to hijack the thread, but I'll say this; being inventive or creative does not automatically make you an artist. As much as I understand and appreciate the potential of a good mastering job, In really don't believe mastering engineers to be any more artistic than say picture framers.

In any case I consider this is a lot less important than mastering engineers who seem to want to change their clients art into some kind of personal soapbox.

We've been around this before, it comes down to semantics, I guess. That said, here is a verbatim e-mail I received from a modern jazz composer based in Switzerland about a mastering: "I've listen trough the tracks yet and I'm very pleased with the result. They sound great! Your a real artist!"

No, I do not think I am an artist, but it made me feel great that the artist did.

Alan Silverman

[jasman]

How about a little reverse psychology?

**WARNING**
This CD contains music with high dynamic content
and may be unsuitable for some listeners. Discretion advised

[Masterer]

This record is presented in DYNAPHONIC sound.

[Samc]

.....Aaahhh where are you guys planning on putting this slogan....I mean, do you think that artists and record labels are going to allow you to put this on their CDs', or are you planning on producing your own......CD that is?

[heathen]

I think they may just welcome it.

[cerberus]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Everyone in the world knows "Dolby system" though most people have no idea what it does. See what marketing and a simple name does for you? Speaking of Dolby, how would you like to be the ONLY guy in the world whose name appears ABOVE the artists on the marquee!

! the only thing i can tell you about wqxr-fm ca.1971 is that they played dolby warble tones before certain shows so that audiophiles could record them! [dolby-b did not exist yet] well i do recall it was a folk music show... but i had a peripheral awareness of dolby-a when i was about five years old. maybe that meant more to my life than i realized until now.

Originally Posted by Masterer

This record is presented in DYNAPHONIC sound.

[top]dynaphonic mastering process

better for us. we've lost the inner groove, that was space on the package that we [not me personally, but your employer] used to own. go ahead and take it back!

jeff dinces