Loudness Wars - The Answer??

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by bob katz

I'd like to know if Santana drove the sound of his last album, which is screwed up. Ruben Blades? Lyle Lovett? Eric Clapton?

Why aren't they cutting it with you?

DC

[rufus13]

Go to the source:

http://home.comcast.net/~retired_old_jj/

JJ spoke at Opus4 Studios (approximately north of Seattle WA) on 25 April 2006 during an Audio Engineering Society Northwest Section meeting. The title of the talk was "Loudness vs Intensity: What's the big deal?"

JJ understands that normal people have no idea about thresholds and critical bands. Attendees got an "executive summary" of stuff that should take hours or years to explain, in 63 minutes.

Here's a good one from 1934
http://www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/bell.l...erspective.pdf

And notes fron the talk:
http://www.aes.org/sections/pnw/ppt/...al/loudtut.ppt

[Samc]

I'd like to know if Santana drove the sound of his last album, which is screwed up. Ruben Blades? Lyle Lovett? Eric Clapton?

Those are three serious artists who in the past have made dynamic, terrific product, and in my opinion got seriously shortchanged on their last albums. Who's at fault, Vlado the impaler? The artist?

All of sudden artists are being painted as helpless little kids who are being taken for a ride by everyone in (and out of) the production process.......gee, wonder who "shortchanged" these helpless lads?

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by dcollins

Why aren't they cutting it with you?

DC

Someday soon they will!

[arf]

Originally Posted by Samc

All of sudden artists are being painted as helpless little kids who are being taken for a ride by everyone in (and out of) the production process.......gee, wonder who "shortchanged" these helpless lads?

Real name please, Samc. Preferably first and last. If you want to keep stirring the pot let's know who the chef is.

[Samc]

Originally Posted by arf

Real name please, Samc. Preferably first and last. If you want to keep stirring the pot let's know who the chef is.

When was this rule adopted?

Anyway I thought my name was in my profile, it is: Sam Clayton.

By the way Alan I don't really like what you are trying to insinuate with this post.

[heathen]

C'mon Sam chill out mate, you may as well introduce yourself if your going to participate, remember we are not trying to ruin an artists career its actually the opposite. We are trying to make them sound great, it's not a competition, well it should'nt be, this is the reason of this thread I guess. There will always be a "WE verse They", this is only a discussion so far and a damn good 1 which is needed.

Sam, here's a question for you, where do you think the RMS war will end -4, -3 maybe -2, so far I believe things are creeping up to say -6. So where should it end? By this stage there is no music left its just noise. Also where would you like it to end?

Heath Thorpe

[stellar]

I am not a professional or "in the industry" but I can definitely say with out a doubt the problem is sucky musicians and the sucky labels that release their sucky music. I don't even understand why you even care about preserving the 'artistic content' of a lot of this music. I'm not saying you're all producing crap. I'm saying that a lot of the industry is producing crap - that is the problem. And the musicians who will do anything to be the one making that crap...they dont care what the rms level is. they jus want to make their money and be famous. and the listner doesn't even care. they dont even care what theyre listening to as long as its 'cool'. This is a problem borne out of mainstream pop music. who even cares. Why aren't you all bitching about how bad the music is in the first place?

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by stellar

Why aren't you all bitching about how bad the music is in the first place?

Because it is not our call to make judgments on other people's art perhaps?



Look man, I am not saying I like much new music either... I don't for the most part. But as a professional recording engineer and producer I don't think it is my job to comment on the quality of the art produced.

Maybe when I have my producer hat on I can make some judgment calls but even then if the whole band sucks and I did not want to work with them I should not have taken the gig in the first place. When I have just my engineer hat on, I don't have any responsibility to make the music good just to make it sound good and as a professional I do that to the best of my ability no matter what I think of the content....

I was hired to do a job and I am going to do it as well as I can.

Believe it or not I really really dig making things sound good. I think most of us around here do actually and that is why we get pissed off when things come back from an ME sounding like squashed grapes in a wine press, even more so when a record co. mook or the band pushes the ME in that direction.

[stellar]

That makes sense. I guess what I mean is if listeners don't care how bad the music is I don't see them really caring about the amount of dynamic range. and if the musicans dont care about dynamic range then really its a lost cause. what you need is for hip bands to start making good albums again and then talking about it in the interviews like its the new cool thing. Although I do like the sticker.

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by stellar

That makes sense. I guess what I mean is if listeners don't care how bad the music is I don't see them really caring about the amount of dynamic range. and if the musicans dont care about dynamic range then really its a lost cause. what you need is for hip bands to start making good albums again and then talking about it in the interviews like its the new cool thing. Although I do like the sticker.

Well that is a good idea as well.... a CD that sounds good because it is actually quieter. It could become the cool thing to do to have a less loud CD. I have seen stranger things happen (like it is cool to wear your pants around your knees for instance ) so I think that could work in some circles.

[Lynn Fuston]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

I have seen stranger things happen (like it is cool to wear your pants around your knees for instance ) so I think that could work in some circles.

So, what used to be a plumber's joke is now the new mark of cool?

Will wonders never cease?

And guys wearing girls blue jeans is now considered in. You couldn't pull that one off 30 years ago.... (no pun intended.)

[cerberus]

there is plenty of good music being made and released on indy labels. if you aren't hearing it than perhaps try switching to a radio station that plays music you like. two bands i've been getting into lately are"tapes 'n tapes" and "wolf parade". you may find you don't like these bands; but i doubt you'd think that they suck.

jeff dinces

[Wilde]

These are all really good comments. I agree with most of it. My idea is definitely not 100% yet but I’m glad and amazed to see how much constructive debate it has helped spark.
I think that a RMS level metadata sequence at the start of each song is the way to go. This way the playing device can compensate easily without hectic detection software. As Bob Katz has said there would definitely need to be an association or board that oversees this though. If ME’s did it, they would soon cheat it to get their tracks played louder and landing us back on the drawing board. The “Turn it Up” idea is a cool phrase but the looks is too much like the LG logo and is too cute.

But more importantly, I believe that the actual business/contractual side deserves more attention. If the level standards and software is created and licensed to player manufacturers, this problem will disappear overnight.
Here’s a question:

Does anyone know what is involved with developing a rock-solid RMS detection software for third party licence?

I have no idea. We would definitely need to look forward ten steps though because I can see ME’s distorting the tone of albums quite drastically to come across as louder to overcome this hurdle. I think it would have to take into account the critical band between 800hz and 4khz and give it some kind of preference when detecting the RMS. It would also
have to ignore below a certain threshold to prevent silence from affecting the calculation. These are all minor details though and I’m sure people like Dolby could handle that stuff easily.

The day a fan hears a new “uncrushed” Britney Spears single followed by an older “crushed” single of hers on their iPod at the same level, it’s over. Everyone will hear how much better dynamic music sounds. A&R’s will start spewing words like punch and dynamics and demand softer records.

I’m glad to see that people out there are as passionate as I am about this issue. I find it physically painful to listen to
“crushed” CD’s and I’m sure every brainstorm like this one brings us closer to solving the puzzle for good.

Keep it up.

[Wilde]

LOL!!

[Samc]

Why on earth are you guys so bent on implementing some kind of scheme to restrict what people can do with their music?

Are any of you really comfortable with countering one bad move with another bad move?

Saying it's too loud and it sounds shitty is one thing, but actively trying to tie the hands of artist and producers so that they are forced to make records the way you think is best, puts you in a worse light than the A&R folks that some of you like to blame for everything.

First we decided that it was some secret plot by A&R and SOME mastering engineers to "destroy" music. Then in the same breath we decide that we know better than the consumers and should dictate how they should listen to music.

Come on guys...........

Sam, here's a question for you, where do you think the RMS war will end -4, -3 maybe -2, so far I believe things are creeping up to say -6. So where should it end? By this stage there is no music left its just noise. Also where would you like it to end?

Heathen, the only time I know or care what RMS levels should be, is when I'm making a CD. For all other CDs, I leave that up to the people who are creating/Producing. It will end when...and only when, artist and producers decide (for whatever reason) that it should end.

[living sounds]

What about "Explosive Audio" or "Xplosive Audio" or "Explosive Dynamic Audio "(or vice versa)? Just market it as a feature.

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston

So, what used to be a plumber's joke is now the new mark of cool?

Will wonders never cease?

And guys wearing girls blue jeans is now considered in. You couldn't pull that one off 30 years ago.... (no pun intended.)

Exactly... as I said I guess you can make anything "cool" if you try right?

thumbsup

[stellar]

Originally Posted by Wilde

The day a fan hears a new “uncrushed” Britney Spears single followed by an older “crushed” single of hers on their iPod at the same level, it’s over. Everyone will hear how much better dynamic music sounds. A&R’s will start spewing words like punch and dynamics and demand softer records.

I think you live in a fantasy world. No "fan" of britney spears is going to care or even notice. who even cares about preserving that music? and as far as "indie" bands, they can put out whatever they want, remember?? I haven't heard "tapes n' tapes" but I have heard wolf parade and i didn't think they were all that great.

[johnlink]

Originally Posted by Samc

Saying it's too loud and it sounds shitty is one thing, but actively trying to tie the hands of artist and producers so that they are forced to make records the way you think is best, puts you in a worse light than the A&R folks that some of you like to blame for everything.

A standard for CDs similar to the one for movies would not restrict anyone from making a crushed CD, but it would remove the incentive for crushing CDs just to make them louder.

John Link

[Brad Blackwood]

Originally Posted by johnlink

A standard for CDs similar to the one for movies would not restrict anyone from making a crushed CD, but it would remove the incentive for crushing CDs just to make them louder.

You been to see any movies lately?

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Brad Blackwood

You been to see any movies lately?

The Trailers are squashed as bad as many country music release from Nashville these days, but I'd say a lot of the films are still quite dynamic. Loud on the peaks, but dynamic.

BK

[Brad Blackwood]

Originally Posted by bob katz

The Trailers are squashed as bad as many country music release from Nashville these days, but I'd say a lot of the films are still quite dynamic. Loud on the peaks, but dynamic.

See records from 1995 or so...

[rufus13]

I bring 29dB foam earplugs to movies. They go in in the lobby, and come out when the feature starts.

I am saved from much hearing abuse by f-ing loud commercials and previews. Movie features (the "product" I bought a ticket for) are sometimes loud, but for dramatic effect, not just to pre-deafen the audience (move audience hearing threshhold way up so that they won't hear the air conditioning pump bearings failing).

I like to attend 1st run movies during mid-week matinee (before school is out). It's almost a private screening, and it's a few bucks less.

And they wonder why so many "home theater" systems are sold?

[johnlink]

Originally Posted by Brad Blackwood

You been to see any movies lately?

I find that most previews are ridiculously loud with little dynamic range, while the movies themselves are fine.

Does anyone know why the movie standard not applied to the previews? Or perhaps the previews are within the standard, but almost always at the limit?

John Link

P.S. I am glad to see previews of other movies, but I find commercials for anything else in a movie theater to be nothing but obnoxious, even if the sound is ok.

[Jerry Tubb]

Originally Posted by bob katz

The Trailers are squashed as bad as many country music release from Nashville these days, but I'd say a lot of the films are still quite dynamic. Loud on the peaks, but dynamic.

BK

Hey guys, big movie fan here, esp Sci-Fi... but I have to wear ear plugs in the movies... very quiet dialog... then KABOOM... something blows up... the dynamic contrast can be a bit much for my ME sensitive hearing... so I wear plugs, figure I'll catch all the dialog later when the DVD comes out.

Same at UT football games, the roar of 50,000+ rabid Longhorn fans can be unbelievable. Some young fan asked if I had ultrasonic hearing or something.

Hate to sound like a wuss, but the youthful macho days of enduring hot SPL levels are no longer an option, us middle aged+ guys gotta protect our equipment... but hey, wait a minute... 50's the new 30 right? damn the torpedos, turn it all the way up to 86dB... I can take it!

cheers JT

[thenoiseflower]

How about:

dynamic digital reproduction (DDR)
or Certified Dynamic Digital (CDD)
"This recording takes advantage of digital advances for a better, more dynamic, and a more musical reproduction, and is less damaging to the human ear than other modern reproductions." period


and maybe have a sub label, like (-20-14), (-14-10), (-10-8), (-6r) (-3r) and (O) -on the back(i.e. AAD/DDD ect.) to back up the dynamic claim - so we know what we are getting into when we buy, and get back to some sort or knowledge to the public.
obviously anthing up at dfegad (-3r) or (O) is not CDD/DDR

and when we get 24 bit dics, the can be called CDD's

just chimin' in


tutt -WARNING--stream of thinking, may be nonsence--WARNING-tutt

[cerberus]

Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb

I have to wear ear plugs in the movies...

i live in manhattan. i do not walk out of doors without ear protection.
maybe this is related to the loudness war, maybe my ears are more sensitive than everyone else's? naw... it's a societal thing.. like getting drunk, becoming deaf is a ritual in the cycle of western life... we assume old people go deaf, beacuse the chance of them being exposed to 130 db sound pressure once in a lifetime in our society is high..and that's all it takes to do permanent damage.

it's just my opinion that industrialized society is overall way too loud. most deafness that isn't genetic is proof to me.

my dad started to go deaf after he had serious ear pain on an airplane from the air pressure... his response was to take pseudofed and continue the obviously unhealthy exposure for the rest of his life. very sad for me...he wears a hearing aid now; seems very comfortable being a grandpa, so i think he has no regrets.

jeff dinces

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by johnlink

I find that most previews are ridiculously loud with little dynamic range, while the movies themselves are fine.

Does anyone know why the movie standard not applied to the previews? Or perhaps the previews are within the standard, but almost always at the limit?

John Link

P.S. I am glad to see previews of other movies, but I find commercials for anything else in a movie theater to be nothing but obnoxious, even if the sound is ok.

The previews are ALWAYS pushing the limit, if the Dolby guys aren't looking. You can complain about a loud preview to the Dolby people, it might help. But the thing is that if you take dialogue and heavily compress it as in a typical preview, it doesn't exceed the Dolby loudness standards, but it still sounds obnoxious. That's the problem, loud dialogue just sounds real loud and obnoxious to the ear, so they'd have to set another rule for dialogue and they haven't done that.

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by stellar

I am not a professional or "in the industry" but I can definitely say with out a doubt the problem is sucky musicians and the sucky labels that release their sucky music. I don't even understand why you even care about preserving the 'artistic content' of a lot of this music. I'm not saying you're all producing crap. I'm saying that a lot of the industry is producing crap - that is the problem. And the musicians who will do anything to be the one making that crap...they dont care what the rms level is. they jus want to make their money and be famous. and the listner doesn't even care. they dont even care what theyre listening to as long as its 'cool'. This is a problem borne out of mainstream pop music. who even cares. Why aren't you all bitching about how bad the music is in the first place?

Yes. Bitching about sucky music sounds like a great way to spend the day.
Is ther a sign-up sheet for that?