What is it exactly that is outputted from an SACD players optical output?

[bendermastering]

From my experience the output will be a converted to PCM digital stream and not the original DSD stream.

I guess it had something to do with copyright stuff, they never managed to get the DSD stream on those digital outputs.

Some hi-end players had firewire connections for that purpose though!

[Jules]

So would the analog outs sound best?!!!

I am scratching my head here?

[bendermastering]

Originally Posted by Jules

So would the analog outs sound best?!!!

I am scratching my head here?

Well, that's a tricky question...

You're basically asking if the DAC of a "cheapish" SACD player outperforms a PCM version through a Grace DAC?

There's a lot of factors involved in it but (in theory) the analogue outs should be better, at least they have one less conversion than the PCM version.

Guess it depends mainly on the player...

[audioaddict]

Originally Posted by bendermastering

Well, that's a tricky question...

You're basically asking if the DAC of a "cheapish" SACD player outperforms a PCM version through a Grace DAC?

There's a lot of factors involved in it but (in theory) the analogue outs should be better, at least they have one less conversion than the PCM version.

Guess it depends mainly on the player...

Agreed.

PCM through a great DAC should take down the analog outs of a cheap player.

I'd wager the best PCM DACs will outperform the best SACD player as the development for PCM DACs in the high end world is a lot more extensive, but for sure a cheap SACD player is nothing to write home about.

[ds11]

Is it possible to output DSD somehow? Maybe you could get DSD into a computer and use high end conversion software to PCM before playing through the DAC?

edit: bit of searching tells me you need a DSD interface, as it doesn't work through SPDIF etc.?

so you're pretty much stuck with relying on the SACD player to convert to PCM?

[ds11]

and Jules can't you just put a turntable up high on a shelf?

[Mighty_Zoltan]

BTW Jules there is a whole other world of SACD obsessiveness at SA-CD.net - Recent Additions

They'd be good with answers for sure. They review every release that comes out pretty much. Oppo players seem to be really popular with those dudes...

[zenmastering]

Jules,

The digital output of your SACD player will most likely be 44K1 / 16 bit. There have been a few aftermarket mods available to generate a high-res PCM output from an SACD player but those are mostly 'gone' by now.

You could go the DIY route and add a better DAC to your existing player. Something like this

Or, buy an Oppo BDP93 for the same money ( a good all-round player!)

Otherwise, you can now rip SACDs using a hack to a first edition Sony PS3. Those ripped files can be played in a few different file player apps (Foobar, Jriver MC, PureMusic, etc.)

If your player's DAC and analogue stages are up to the job, then it could sound better than the PCM output...

Which particular Stones album?

Graemme

[newguy]

Usually the digital output is muted while playing the SACD layer (for copy protection reasons). If the disc is a "hybrid" disc, the digital out will output 16/44 pcm while playing back the Red Book layer.

If the player has an HDMI output, and you have a receiver capable of accepting a SACD (DSD) digital signal, you can get better quality if the converters in the receiver are superior to the player's built-in DACS. Even in you have a compatible receiver, it may perform DSD to PCM conversion (rather than natively decode the DSD stream) which can slightly degrade the quality.


Sent from my Sony Tablet S using Gearslutz App

[newguy]

As Graemme just mentioned, the best option is to get a SACD compatible "PS3" to backup your "SACD" to an "ISO"......(Google is your friend). Then convert to PCM tracks, or playback and convert on the fly using Foobar etc.

Good luck finding an older affordable SACD compatible player with the proper firmware. Also not sure about the legality of backing up your SACD'S. There is lots of info available regarding backing up and converting your SACD'S to hi rez PCM tracks that you can play back on the DAC of your choice.

Sent from my Sony Tablet S using Gearslutz App

[DSD_Mastering]

Just to clarify something above... there are 3-4 SACD players that do pass a direct DSD data stream and can be connected to a Sonoma or a Tascam DV-RA1000HD to capture the DSD files. Unfortunately, the players are $$$.... dCS, EMM Labs and Playback Designs.

The PS3 hack doesn't work that well. There are still a few bugs.

[Plush]

Hello Jules,

Very good performence can be had by playing out from the analog outputs from a sacd player that does not convert to pcm.

There are some players including Sony and Onkyo that keep the signal dsd.

Exile is my fave record too and I doubt that it's gritty presentation can benefit from dsd. New LP version from the latest batch is good.

It costs a lot to playback sacd. HDMI capable player to a HDMI receiver then listening to analog outs is my recommended method.

I say take your disc to a London hi-fi salon for audition and adjudication. "never kept a dollar past sunset, always burned a hole in my pants."

[norbury brook]

Jules when my kids were small and my daughter snapped the stylus from my moving coil cartridge I decided it was the time to go CD.

Nowadays why don't you just get 24/96 high res downloads and use a media streamer?

MC

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Gearslutz App

[Jules]

Thanks guys that was interesting!

Hmmm..

Seems really complicated to hear this back digitally (with my Grace 903)

On cheery note there are other albums available via high res file download stores..

But not this one album..

I think ripping it (back up as referred to above here) to PCM might be best..

What a journey! :face palm:

[Jules]

Originally Posted by newguy

Usually the digital output is muted while playing the SACD layer (for copy protection reasons). If the disc is a "hybrid" disc, the digital out will output 16/44 pcm while playing back the Red Book layer.

ugh...

[Jules]

Originally Posted by newguy

There is lots of info available regarding backing up and converting your SACD'S to hi rez PCM tracks that you can play back on the DAC of your choice.

Hmm.. that seems to be where i am headed

Does anyone in London have to kit to do this?

Lunch is on me!

[Riccardo]

I believe the latest Mytek DAC plays DSD via both USB and firewire. If I remember correctly some Sony Vaio models were (are?) able to playback DSD files.

http://www.mytekdigital.com/download...ual_v1.4.2.pdf

[DSD_Mastering]

Originally Posted by Riccardo

I believe the latest Mytek DAC plays DSD via both USB and firewire. If I remember correctly some Sony Vaio models were (are?) able to playback DSD files.

There are quite a few DACs that will playback a DSD file now.

EMM Labs
Playback Designs
dCS
Mytek
Light Harmonic
MSB Tech
Prism


Software

AudioGate
Sonoma
Pyramix
JRiver
Audirvana +
Pure Music
HQPlayer
Foobar with plugin

[Jules]

Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering

There are quite a few DACs that will playback a DSD file now.

EMM Labs
Playback Designs
dCS
Mytek
Light Harmonic
MSB Tech
Prism


Software

AudioGate
Sonoma
Pyramix
JRiver
Audirvana +
Pure Music
HQPlayer
Foobar with plugin

So if the software will play it back SACD - How do I "get it onto my hard drive" from the SACD itself?

Also I see that the Mytek has some BNC looking inputs (but no HDMI input). So do some SACD players have BNC outputs?

Thanks

BTW - I was asking this out in another forum but it was wisely suggested that you guys might know the answers!

[wado1942]

I just let Sony have it their way. I do have an SACD player that's somewhat retired, but currently use a Blu-Ray player that will allow DSD to pass through the HDMI port. I had to get a 5.1 receiver that would receive and reproduce DSD sources natively from HDMI. Oh, and they're both 3D compatible, so if I ever get a 3D TV, I'm ready for that too.

[zenmastering]

SACD = proprietary disc format where the embedded DSDIFF audio files may have been losslessly compressed into the DST format. The audio files are also multiplexed into one large file called 'image.dat' This is an ISO-formatted data file that the PS3 hackers have managed to crack and allow the DSDIFF files within to be extracted. Equally as important, the hackers have also cracked the lossless compression code ('DST'). Once these files are extracted, as basic DSDIFF or DSF files, they can be played using any of the players / DACs mentioned in this thread.

As Hudson noted, PCM playback would be fine for Exile. That particular SACD was made from PCM files in the first place.

Graemme

Originally Posted by Jules

So if the software will play it back SACD - How do I "get it onto my hard drive" from the SACD itself?

Also I see that the Mytek has some BNC looking inputs (but no HDMI input). So do some SACD players have BNC outputs?

Thanks

BTW - I was asking this out in another forum but it was wisely suggested that you guys might know the answers!

[DSD_Mastering]

Originally Posted by Jules

Also I see that the Mytek has some BNC looking inputs (but no HDMI input). So do some SACD players have BNC outputs?

The BNC connections are the SDIF-3 protocol specifically for DSD. The SDIF-2 protocol is for PCM. The Mytek also comes with USB input for DSD as well.

[ds11]

Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering

The BNC connections are the SDIF-3 protocol specifically for DSD. The SDIF-2 protocol is for PCM. The Mytek also comes with USB input for DSD as well.

Do you mean clock or DSD audio?? I thought BNC only sends clock signals?

[DSD_Mastering]

Originally Posted by ds11

Do you mean clock or DSD audio?? I thought BNC only sends clock signals?

SDIF-3 is a DSD audio interface which carries no clock signal. You'll need a separate clock signal.

MADI also uses BNC connectors.

[zenmastering]

SDIF 2 aka "raw DSD" is not for PCM only. It does require a separate clock. With SDIF 3 no external clock is required.

Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering

The BNC connections are the SDIF-3 protocol specifically for DSD. The SDIF-2 protocol is for PCM. The Mytek also comes with USB input for DSD as well.

[DSD_Mastering]

Originally Posted by zenmastering

SDIF 2 aka "raw DSD" is not for PCM only. It does require a separate clock. With SDIF 3 no external clock is required.

This is from the EMM Labs manual:

• Supported output formats:
• AES/EBU (4 connectors) for PCM
• “RAW DSD” (legacy format for DSD on BNC conectors)
• SDIF-3 for DSD on BNC connectors
• SDIF-2 for PCM on BNC connectors
• ST Fiber optic for DSD
• Supported input formats:
• Balanced analog 8dbu - 32dbu (pin 2 hot), switchable ranges 8dbu-20dbu /
20dbu - 32 dbu.
• “RAW DSD” (legacy format for DSD on BNC conectors)
• SDIF-3 for DSD on BNC connectors
• ST Fiber optic for DSD

From the Tascam DV-RA1000HD manual:

SDIF-3/DSD-raw These BNC connectors accept and
output digital audio data in SDIF-3 (DSD-Raw) format.
Each connector carries one channel of the stereo pair.

[zenmastering]

If what you say is true, I couldn't have listened to any of the DSD projects I've worked on...

If you actually *operate* either of those devices (or the Pyramix system you own) you'll see/hear that SDIF-2 is a valid DSD carrier...

Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering

This is from the EMM Labs manual:

• Supported output formats:
• AES/EBU (4 connectors) for PCM
• “RAW DSD” (legacy format for DSD on BNC conectors)
• SDIF-3 for DSD on BNC connectors
• SDIF-2 for PCM on BNC connectors
• ST Fiber optic for DSD
• Supported input formats:
• Balanced analog 8dbu - 32dbu (pin 2 hot), switchable ranges 8dbu-20dbu /
20dbu - 32 dbu.
• “RAW DSD” (legacy format for DSD on BNC conectors)
• SDIF-3 for DSD on BNC connectors
• ST Fiber optic for DSD

From the Tascam DV-RA1000HD manual:

SDIF-3/DSD-raw These BNC connectors accept and
output digital audio data in SDIF-3 (DSD-Raw) format.
Each connector carries one channel of the stereo pair.

[DSD_Mastering]

Originally Posted by zenmastering

If what you say is true, I couldn't have listened to any of the DSD projects I've worked on......

Just quoting from the manual... guess Ed Meitner and Tascam are just wrong.

and yes, we 'operate' our Pyramix and Sonoma systems using the Meitner, Playback Designs, DAD, Mytek and Tascam converters.

[carlos269]

DSD can be carried or output in BOTH SDIF-2 and SDIF-3 formats where the actual hardware allows.

ZenMastering is correct, "raw DSD" is the SDIF-2 version.

The "Original" Meitner/Emm Labs stereo DSD DAC, which I own (also own the original stereo DSD ADC units as well) can decode from either a SDIF-2 "raw DSD" or and SDIF-3 DSD signal. dCS DSD units can also decode SDIF-2 "raw DSD" as well.

The Mytek DSD DAC, Digital Audio Denmark AX24 and Tascam's DV-RA1000/HD (all of which I currently also own and use) can only decode DSD via their BNC connections ONLY in SDIF-3 mode.

I know this as my dCS 972/974 allows me to configure the DSD output in either SDIF-2 or SDIF-3 mode and only the "Original" two-channel Meitner/EMM Labs DSD Mastering stereo DAC and the dCS Elgar-Plus, 954 and 955 can lock in and decode the "raw DSD" SDIF-2 signal while every single unit mentioned above locks in and decodes the SDIF-3 configured signal.

SDIF-2 on BNC connectors was originally used for PCM but in the early days SONY took advantage of this interface to transmit "raw DSD" as well. Now DSD over BNC is typically SDIF-3.

Hope this helps clarify some of the above posts.