Prism Orpheus for mastering? And also a question for the folks at Prism...

[nms]

So the golden question.. why not buy a Lynx Hilo then? It trounces the Orpheus & MADA-2 if what you're after is transparent conversion. Likewise I'm the 384 probably beats the Hilo if you want to spend that kind of money. Those things seem deadly.

[shelterr]

I'm not going off specs. I'm going off sound. As of yet, I have found no proof that they Hilo sounds good compared to the usual suspects of hi-end mastering convertors and although I know that the convertor is upgraded from the Aurora...I really dislike the Aurora 16 (and I own it so there is no point in trying to convince me it is world class conversion...it is not).

[nms]

Specs? What specs? You need to do some research! It's the most transparent converter I know of under $7k and everyone who's bought one or demoed is saying it's the best conversion they've heard. I happily swapped out my Lavry DA10 & Mytek 192 ADC for one.

[shelterr]

Apparently you are the one who needs to do his research because there is an ongoing convertor thread on GS that has the Hilo as having the best specs of many convertors tested. So I have done the research, but all the research in the world tells me nothing about the sound of the convertor. I don't know if you even READ my thread but I own a Lavry Gold and I picked the Orpheus over it in a blind test. Every time I listen to the test, my taste prefers the Prism Orpheus and the test is VERY accurate to what the Lavry actually sounds like. So if the test is accurate to the sound of the Gold and I like the Orpheus hands down the best, I have reason to believe that the Orpheus may be something I would be interested in. As far as I can tell, there are ZERO AD shootouts that include the Lynx Hilo. I already own a top of the line mastering AD, so without some sort of proof, why would the Lynx Hilo interest me? If it's better than your DA-10/Mytek combo that's great, but that information does me no good as I don't like the sound of Mytek convertors for mastering, and my previous DA was a Lavry Blue. I'm not looking to spend $2500 on a convertor that isn't as good as what I have. I would simply never use it. However if the Orpheus sounds like I think it does, I may pick it over the Lavry for certain projects, or even prefer it the point where I could just sell my golds. I find it hard to believe the Hilo sounds good enough for me to sell by golds, but without as much as a shootout test to compare against, why would I consider making such a move?

This isn't a Lynx Hilo thread. I outlined some pretty specific interests in my original thread and I'm fairly sure you do not have the answers or insight that I am looking for.

[nms]

Well sport, I am in fact aware of the tests on this site considering I run the largest of them and I have several gigabytes of test recordings done through about 50 units including the Orpheus. Those aren't simply specs that are listed (though you can find a full spread of tested specs where Hilo tops them all). The bulk of it is null tests which tests a unit's ability to pass real music through the converters with minimal degradation.

I'm sure Prism will put out something great on their next go, but where accuracy & transparency of conversion is concerned the Orpheus is no match for the Hilo just like the Lavry Blue/Black or Mytek ADC. If you only needed a DAC the new Mytek 192 slays the Orph and could be a match for the Hilo. I can't speak for your preference because maybe you'd rather some color, but do yourself a favor and demo some units or you'll likely end up making a mistake one way or another. Ideally your DAC should be as transparent as possible.


Be careful about listening shootouts on this site as well. It doesn't take much to flaw them.

[Slug1]

Originally Posted by shelterr

Making a Prism Orpheus device similar to the Lynx Hilo or Antelope 384 might be killer too.

Kind of agree with nms. No need to make Orpheus like Hilo, just get a Hilo. Most people buy Prism converters because they are incredibly transparent. A great mastering converter has no 'sound'. The only aspect of sound that I look for now in a converter is stereo imaging. In recording or even mixing one may want a 'mojo' converter like a Burl B2. Maybe every now and then one would even use a B2 in mastering. But most MEs are looking for transparency the vast majority of the time. If that's the case, then Hilo is a really great bet.

[shelterr]

If we are gonna play the condescending "moniker" game...

Alright chief, just keep telling me how good the Hilo is and I'll just keep sitting here having no idea what it sounds like. You would think that SOMEBODY would be eager to post up a shootout with the Hilo in it, but so far there is just specs and hype. If I heard it and the sonic quality agreed with me, I'd look into it. CURRENTLY I am interested in information regarding people's experience with the Orpheus in actual mastering applications because I have reason to believe it's character may suit me based on a blind listening test where my current convertor of choice was accurately portrayed next to it.

Tell me this: How well the does the Hilo clip? What proof do you have to offer me that it actually SOUNDS good? How does it sound compared to the Lavry Gold? What records have I heard that have been mastered with it?

[shelterr]

Originally Posted by Slug1

Kind of agree with nms. No need to make Orpheus like Hilo, just get a Hilo. Most people buy Prism converters because they are incredibly transparent. A great mastering converter has no 'sound'. The only aspect of sound that I look for now in a converter is stereo imaging. In recording or even mixing one may want a 'mojo' converter like a Burl B2. Maybe every now and then one would even use a B2 in mastering. But most MEs are looking for transparency the vast majority of the time. If that's the case, then Hilo is a really great bet.

There is no "agreeing" with nms because he isn't showing me anything. He isn't answering my questions, he isn't giving me audio clips to listen to. He is just telling me that in theory, the Hilo is the most transparent convertor and that means I should get it. Have you ever heard Burl convertors? Used them? Everything in your post sounds like second hand Gearslutz rhetoric. I have heard/owned MANY different hi-end convertors and I mix and master records constantly. Have you ever used a Lavry Gold? Compared it the Hilo? Compared the Hilo to the Orpheus? Do you have ANY actual knowledge on this topic whatsoever, or have you just heard that MEs favor transparent convertors and heard the Hilo is the most transparent?

If you have NOTHING to contribute to the very detailed and specific questions and ideas raised in my original post, and haven't used ANY of the gear I am inquiring about, why are you posting in this thread?

[ionian]

Ooh! I love condescending monikers!!! We haven't even gotten to boss, ace, or pal yet.

This could take days if we're clever....

[shelterr]

I almost went with "guy" but chief is my go to. If it's a woman I'm referring to...I always go with "champ". They seem to really hate it!

[ionian]

"Guy" and "Champ"...I forgot those two! Good call.

On the topic of your thread, I don't have experience with the HiLo, but when I was looking for converters, I was also interested in the Orpheus and just like you, I had wished they had a two channel box. I even would have taken a four channel box thinking that they could at least cut the Orpheus in half. Maybe with two mic pres.

Anyway, I ended up with Mytek, which I do like, but I still wished at the time that there was a 2 or 4 channel Orpheus. So I'm also here to voice my support for such a box. And I also agree that I think Prism is missing out by not offering one. They lost my sale to Mytek because of it. I thought that at the time I was looking for converters and I still think it.

Regards,
Frank

[fuse]

With the guys 'tiger' or 'honey' will do nicely as well.

As to the original question.

Why keep wondering if you can find out yourself? You can debate about it to great lengths but in the end trying it out for yourself will give the definitive answer.

[polybonk]

Originally Posted by nms

Likewise I'm the 384 probably beats the Hilo if you want to spend that kind of money. Those things seem deadly.

But if I clip a antelope 384 will it sound like death magnetic, or will the atomic clock explode and kill us all?

[shelterr]

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who would like this option. I'd probably pay full Orpheus asking price for just the 2 AD/DA if they had AES connectivity.

[shelterr]

Originally Posted by fuse

With the guys 'tiger' or 'honey' will do nicely as well.

As to the original question.

Why keep wondering if you can find out yourself? You can debate about it to great lengths but in the end trying it out for yourself will give the definitive answer.

The problem is, they even if I love the Orpheus, I wouldn't be able to take advantage of the DA on my own mix/master projects with my current setup. Just the AD. If there was a standalone 2 ch AD/DA with AES connectivity, I'd be good to go.

[nms]

If the Hilo sounded like a 2 ch Orpheus I'd have stuck with my Lavry & Mytek.

Anyways sugarplum, the most important thing I said is to go demo as that's the only way you're going to get real answers. Is that a problem for you due to location? You can pick up the Hilo for around $2050 too *if* you decided to go that route.

I'll tell you what shooter.. if you want to send me a clip of audio to send through a Hilo DA/AD loop and clip the input by a certain amount just post the file or pm me and I'll do it for ya. For mastering the Hilo kills the Orph. You just need to find a way to demo it.

Alternately if I was to go for another DAC I'd go the Mytek 192. I've heard nothing but glowing recommendations.

[shelterr]

Here's the deal sweetcakes, I am interested in hearing ANY reasonably nice mastering convertor. Any time I have the opportunity to A/B test convertors of any kind I always do because unlike what a lot of people on GS think, I think conversion is extremely important. If it were as easy as "just demoing" convertors, I'd have every nice convertor sent to my studio, shoot them all out on three different projects, and ponder the results with an open checkbook. If you know of some way that I can easliy demo the Hilo, Orpheus, Mytek, and any other reasonable contender, point me that direction and I will glady produce detailed listening tests for all to hear and mull over.

Believe me, I would LOVE for the Hilo to be better than the Lavry Gold. I would love nothing more than to get a world class mastering AD/DA for 2k but in my experience, that just isn't the way it works out. I'll happily prove myself wrong if given the opportunity.

One quick question I've been meaning to ask...have you ever mastered anything through the Orpheus or actually compared it with the Hilo? You sound so sure about the what the results of such a comparison would be that I have to imagine you have heard it with your own ears. If not, please try not to throw around sentences like "Hilo kills the Orph" so liberally. That kind of objective statement is only earned through real world experience. Like saying "the Lavry Gold kills the Lynx Aurora 16" for mastering. I can say that because I have both. Would I say that the Lavry Gold "kills" the Lavry Blue or Burl AD? No. Because even though I generally prefer the Gold, there are a lot of sonic qualities to all three and they are worth describing. At that level, the differences in conversion can seem small, but make all the difference. It's a game of inches, not miles...but from where I'm sitting people appreciate the difference.

[nms]

Ultimately, even if no one else in the world noticed.. If you notice & appreciate it that's what matters most IMO.

While getting one of the best ADDA converters on the planet for $2k might have been unrealistic 5 yrs ago it's a reality now. Digital technology is always moving forward. Compare a new $1000 computer with a $1000 computer from when the Orpheus came out and you've got an example of that.

When I say the Hilo kills the Orpheus I meant on a technical level of performance for transparent conversion. To me the mark of a better converter is a unit that passes audio without altering it and this is something that hands down goes to the Hilo. It's stupidly clean and I do have test files that were run through both. Since you're a man of good ears I'll post this for you. One is the original, the other has been looped through the Hilo DA to AD. Can you tell which is the original? If anyone else here with good ears & monitoring wants to check it out and see if you can tell which is the source/better feel free to comment whether you can tell or not. Conversion has certainly come a long way.

Blue loopback
Red loopback

[shelterr]

I will certainly see if I can hear a difference between the two files, but I definitely don't judge my convertors based on tests like this. I don't digitally reproduce files for a living. In fact, there is no job other than "file tester" that requires anyone to test convertors in this fashion.

Also, with regards to digital technology coming a long way, there is at some evidence to suggest that this is not always the case with regards to convertors. Below is someone posing this same question and being answered by Dan Lavry himself.

--
Also, isn't this product getting a little long in the tooth? I mean no disrespect, I know it is a great unit. Its just that with digital there is a technology curve and it seems that newer technology would have (or should have) rendered the Gold to the "old technology" back burner by now. It's a testament to the quality of the original design that it has stood the test of time this long but is it really that far in font of newer designs? That is a serious rather than rhetorical question because I really don't know and I am interested in finding out.
I asked Dan just that and he responded with this-


Hello Patrick,

I would have to think about it, but I really do not think that there is much room for improvement, because the Gold AD yields a huge dynamic range (127dB), and very tiny distortions, to the point that the ear does not detect
it any more.

In the last AES, I had a workshop about digital audio, and Bob Adams, a great engineer from analog devices was on the panel. He was concerned that the converters IC's are taking some steps backward, because so much of the technology is into accommodating the computer age. That translates to using lower and lower voltages which is bad news for analog circuits. It also means there is a lot of digital stuff put on the IC's for interface and features, which leaves less room for the conversion. In other words, there may be a trend to have conversion IC's with built in features (such as EQ), at a lower performance levels, for mass production...

The market for DA's is of course huge - lots of listeners. But there are only 2 IC makers or so left that make good enough IC's for "professional level" AD. Non of them come near the Gold, because the Gold is not an IC solution. I do not see an IC be able to come near the gold for some years to come. But technology is not at all predictable, so any statements about the future should be taken with a grain of salt....

Regards
Dan Lavry
--

So you can see why I may not convinced that the Hilo is going to be the best because it is new. Ill check out the test and see if i can hear any degradation.

[Huntley Miller]

Originally Posted by shelterr

Here's the deal sweetcakes...

+10 points.

[nms]

Originally Posted by shelterr

I will certainly see if I can hear a difference between the two files, but I definitely don't judge my convertors based on tests like this. I don't digitally reproduce files for a living.

Your converters certainly do. A converter should ideally just convert between analog and digital with minimal artifacts in a "what goes in is what goes out" fashion. So there's a lot you can test for test using programs like Right Mark Audio Analyzer or loopback and null tests. No matter how good your ears are I can measure and pinpoint a lot of things things faster, more reliably, & with less room for error using a scientific approach. Obviously that doesn't mean you shouldn't do final confirmation with your ears, but you get the idea. They certainly use a lot of tests & measurements when making your converters. Don't be afraid of science

As for the Lavry Gold, I have wondered the same things you emailed to Dan. Digital tech does move forward though and that's largely due to evolution of the company working to improve their designs, not just the latest converter chip. Mytek & Lynx's latest offerings are certainly better than their previous units. Different manufacturers will always have their own commentary with a slight bias towards what they're doing and their products as well.

[shelterr]

I'm not afraid of science. It just doesn't always equate to good sound. I think this a pretty well understood concept. Linearity is not always king. And no one ever hears the result of these null tests. They hear records. I make null tests when it is applicable. I buy gear to make records. Music has to sound good, not just be accurate. There is nothing accurate about tape, but it can sound very good. If a convertor sounds great, specs don't matter. They never ACTUALLY matter. Only the final result matters, and mastering generates the final result.

[Ben F]

Originally Posted by shelterr

I'm not afraid of science. It just doesn't always equate to good sound. I think this a pretty well understood concept. Linearity is not always king. And no one ever hears the result of these null tests. They hear records. I make null tests when it is applicable. I buy gear to make records. Music has to sound good, not just be accurate. There is nothing accurate about tape, but it can sound very good. If a convertor sounds great, specs don't matter. They never ACTUALLY matter. Only the final result matters, and mastering generates the final result.

Well, you are an operator not an equipment designer. For people in pursuit of audio perfection circuit designs and specs are an important factor in improving their designs. You need that data in order to know what to improve. Listening tests then follow.

[shelterr]

Originally Posted by Ben F

Well, you are an operator not an equipment designer. For people in pursuit of audio perfection circuit designs and specs are an important factor in improving their designs. You need that data in order to know what to improve. Listening tests then follow.

Agreed. But this thread was started by an equipment operator and directed at other equipment operators (ME's). The only way in equipment designers were involved was in the request to repackage an already designed circuit. So specs and things have ZERO place in this discussion. Especially when they are specs not even regarding the unit in question.

For posing such a straight-forward question (simply put...are their any ME's using the Prism Orpheus and how does it compare to other convertors they have heard), I am shocked a the lack of valid input I am receiving. There must be almost NO ONE using the Orpheus for mastering, or threads like this just attract people with their own agendas to push. Either way, it has reflected poorly on this forum.

If I see a post regarding gear I have experience with, I go out of my way to help answer questions and lend any insight I may have.

[nms]

Originally Posted by shelterr

I am shocked a the lack of valid input I am receiving. There must be almost NO ONE using the Orpheus for mastering,

This surprises you? Most people prefer units that are better suited for mastering and would consider Lavry Black/Blue/Gold and Mytek 192 to be better. Considering your rig (which sounds really nice) I really don't think an Orpheus is what you're after. It's a risky move to make a purchase decision based on one forum listening shootout.

threads like this just attract people with their own agendas to push. Either way, it has reflected poorly on this forum.

If I see a post regarding gear I have experience with, I go out of my way to help answer questions and lend any insight I may have.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread with any "agenda" and really have no idea what you're talking about with how the forum is being reflected poorly or not meeting up to your standards.

Anyhow, YOU did mention the Hilo and how great it would be to have an Orpheus in a Hilo configuration. I'm telling you the Hilo is a much better purchase for mastering than the Orpheus and is worth looking into. If you don't want to acknowledge it from a technically accurate standpoint or listen to the reports from everyone who owns or has heard one then the only thing you can do is demo one somewhere. You're going to have to demo something one way or another if you don't want to buy on forum info.

Were you able to conclusively tell the Hilo DA/AD loopback from the original of those files I posted? I'm quite interested since you're into high end conversion.

[Ben F]

Originally Posted by shelterr

Agreed. But this thread was started by an equipment operator and directed at other equipment operators (ME's). The only way in equipment designers were involved was in the request to repackage an already designed circuit. So specs and things have ZERO place in this discussion. Especially when they are specs not even regarding the unit in question.

For posing such a straight-forward question (simply put...are their any ME's using the Prism Orpheus and how does it compare to other convertors they have heard), I am shocked a the lack of valid input I am receiving. There must be almost NO ONE using the Orpheus for mastering, or threads like this just attract people with their own agendas to push. Either way, it has reflected poorly on this forum.

If I see a post regarding gear I have experience with, I go out of my way to help answer questions and lend any insight I may have.

I used to use the Prism ADAX8 for mastering, it's a rock solid unit and sounds quite transparent, maybe a bit clinical. The Orpheus is meant to be an improvement on this. Then bought the Lavry Gold AD and that improved the sound quite a lot. Now using a Prism Dream AD-2 and it's been my favourite AD converter ever, one of the best I've ever used. I could use any of the above for mastering though, the difference isn't that noticeable to the listener, they all are more than capable for mastering. Hope that helps.

[shelterr]

Originally Posted by nms

It's a risky move to make a purchase decision based on one forum listening shootout.

Agreed, which is why I posted this thread as a simple step BEFORE purchasing.

Originally Posted by nms

Anyhow, YOU did mention the Hilo and mentioned how great it would be to have an Orpheus in a Hilo configuration.

I simply mentioned it in terms of connectivity. NOT sound. I still have no physical evidence to make an assessment on the sound of Hilo. Your degradation test also, is not the type of evidence I am referring to.

Originally Posted by nms

No disrespect, but get with the program man! The Hilo kills the Orpheus.

I addressed this already, but you have NO real world basis for saying this and I find it irresponsible for you to imply that you have used the two side beside and the Hilo got better results. "Get with the program"...really guy, this is just sad.

Originally Posted by nms

You're going to have to demo one way or another if you don't want to buy on forum info.

But you do not have the forum info I even asked for. If I need info on how much you like the Hilo, or how good it's specs are I will send you a PM. I did receive some useful information on the Orpheus from a GS poster in the form of a PM and it was immensely helpful. His post might shock you though...no mention of the Hilo. He just answered some questions with knowledge he gained through using both the Lavry Gold and the Prism Orpheus. What a novel idea!

Originally Posted by nms

Most people prefer units that are better suited for mastering and would consider Lavry Black/Blue/Gold and Mytek 192 to be better.

You seem to be unable to digest the fact that I preferred the sonic quality of the Prism Orpheus in a test that contained the Golds and a Mytek (which was second worst for me). I am aware that the Orpheus is not a conventional choice for mastering, but there ARE people who use it and like it for mastering. There are even quotes from Prism representatives that say it's a real tossup between the ADA, the Dream, and the Orpheus as to which sounds the best. The Prism Dream is a top of the line unit, used to master TONS of major releases by the worlds top mastering engineers. The Lavry Gold is another one of these top shelf units. If the Orpheus is in the ballpark of the Dream sound-wise, I would be a fool not to consider it as an alternative option to my current Lavry Gold setup. I am attempting to get perspective on whether or not other people who know these products agree or disagree, and you are NOT helping me.

Unless you have some sort of tangible proof of how the Hilo sounds compared to other notable convertors (heaven forbid an Orpheus or Lavry Gold), I would appreciate it if you stop filling my thread with off topic nonsense. Your position on the Lynx Hilo is WELL accounted for in this thread, and needs no further explanation.

Originally Posted by nms

Were you able to conclusively tell the Hilo DA/AD loopback from the original of those files I posted?

With regards to your loopback test, red sounds quite a bit better than blue. So if red is the one that was converted through the Hilo, you have my attention, but since it isn't compared to anything else, I can only take so much away from such a test.

[shelterr]

Originally Posted by Ben F

I used to use the Prism ADAX8 for mastering, it's a rock solid unit and sounds quite transparent, maybe a bit clinical. The Orpheus is meant to be an improvement on this. Then bought the Lavry Gold AD and that improved the sound quite a lot. Now using a Prism Dream AD-2 and it's been my favourite AD converter ever, one of the best I've ever used. I could use any of the above for mastering though, the difference isn't that noticeable to the listener, they all are more than capable for mastering. Hope that helps.

Thank you VERY much for this info. I sometimes feel like I would prefer the Dream to the Lavry Gold, but It would take extensive testing and I would have to sell my Lavry Gold to make the jump, which would defeat the ability to test and make a decision. This only increases my interest in the Orpheus because I have heard that sound wise it is comparable to the Dream, just considerably cheaper to make.

How would you describe the sonic difference between the Dream and the Gold?

[jrhager84]

You guys are all champs in my books! :D

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