Prism Orpheus for mastering? And also a question for the folks at Prism...

[Jason Rabbit]

Originally Posted by shelterr

The unit sounded considerable better just straight clipped and the OVK did something weird.

Thanks, I gotta see carefully.

[shelterr]

After over a month of involvement with this thread, countless tests, shootouts and opinions, my search has reached an unexpected yet gratifying end.

Today, I purchased a Prism Dream AD-2. I'm not really sure how I was even able to swing it without selling my Lavry Golds first, but it is paid for and should arrive Wednesday or Thursday. After hearing the Orpheus and doing endless research, I am 99.9% sure that Prism is my convertor company of choice. I will actually have both the Lavry and the Prism for at least a little while, so there will certainly be tests and shootouts done, but I am quite sure there will be no hesitation for me in selling the Golds.

That is not to say that I don't think the Golds are a top shelf convertor because they most certainly are. I have made countless records in the last 3-4 years that sound absolutely wonderful to my ears and in many cases, I'm sure I couldn't have achieved the results I did without the Golds doing their "thing". But I believe that I have outgrown that "thing". The way that the Golds focus sound into audible mid-range areas the harder you hit them can be perfect on certain mixes, but ultimately I am happy with my mixes the way they are and I don't need them to be re-focused in any way. I also think that the Golds are just counter intuitive to the way I "see" music. This isn't to say that I haven't mixed around it and produced records that sit the way I want, but I'd prefer to not have to mix around the what the Golds do to get the correct image that I prefer. Even if no one else perceives this image the way I do, I don't stop with the mix/master until it is correct to me, which can be time consuming and exhausting.

The Orpheus really opened my eyes to this imaging issue. The reason I was able to pick the Orpheus consistently as my favorite in blind tests was because of the way it allows the snare to sit in a mix and how tall it sounds. That is what I look for in a good mix/master. Sure the Golds may be wider and more detailed, but they seem less organic and true to the source material. The sound they create is very cool and practical in a lot of cases, but the mid range that is added to the snare drum causes it to be less full and more aggressive. I prefer the rounder snare tone of the Orpheus and the way the guitars seem to not interfere with the snare.

I almost just bought an Orpheus for my laptop that I use to capture my masters. This would have left me with enough money to buy a Forssell DA immediately. Although I was unable to to test the two units at the same time, I have a very strong feeling that this would have been the best combo to my ears. The detail and clarity of the Forssell DA with the organic tall sound of the Orpheus AD just seems like a great match to me. And the Orpheus AD/DA loop sounded good to me even though the Orpheus DA was pretty weak.

If I had gone months without using the Lavry Gold AD I would have considered selling it and just sticking with the Orpheus AD. But then I realized at that point I was always going to wonder if I would just be more happy with the Prism Dream. And if so, why not just roll the money from selling the Lavry into getting the Dream. After all, the Dream has to be better than the Orpheus, right? I assume it does what the Orpheus does well and THEN some. This was too exciting a proposition to pass up and so I hustled a bit and made it happen.

Once I sell the Golds I will probably use a chunk of the money to buy a Forssell DA and I will call it a day on mastering convertors. If I could find a used Prism DA-2 I would consider chipping in for that over the Forssell, but I wonder which one I would actually prefer. I know Matt Gray on this forum preferred the original Forssell DA to the Prism DA-2 and now that version "A" of the Forssell has just been released, I imagine it is even better sounding than the model I tested.

To all of the people who ran tests, offered insight, and answered questions I had about all of the different convertors in question, I thank you. I am quite sure that I wouldn't have come to the same conclusion if not for your many helpful contributions. I still think Prism is leaving a lot of money on the table by not offering an AD/DA unit comparable to the Forssell in price, but they got my money in the end anyway so what do I know!

[jrhager84]

How much your asking for the golds?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk

[jrhager84]

you*

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[shelterr]

$5000 in excellent condition, with original box and manual. I purchased it new in April of 2010 for $7400.

[ionian]

Congrats on the Prism Dream!

Regards,
Frank

[Jason Rabbit]

Originally Posted by shelterr

Today, I purchased a Prism Dream AD-2.

OMG!!
I envy you...

I've been thinking that you should get AD-2,
but I didn't say so because it was clear I get jealous if you got one.
I can't afford.

If I were you, I would keep Lavry Gold besides AD-2.
I'm sure there will be occasions some sounds need Lavry Gold than AD2.

By the way,
Are you Kris or Stephan?

[shelterr]

I am Stephan. I have toyed with the idea of keeping both, but given that straight mastering is not my primary profession, I don't imagine it is a justifiable expense. As much as the Golds are a fantastic, I'm pretty sure that I'm not going to miss them, just based on my personal preference. I will actually have an opportunity to test the Dream next to the Orpheus soon, which should be interesting. Believe me...if the tests conclude that the Orpheus is as good or better than the the Dream, I'll be a very rich fella. Probably buy myself a pair of Retro 176's!

[Jason Rabbit]

Sounds good.

I used to want to get a Retro176, but now I'm more interested in Pendulum ES-8 or other Vari-Mu comps.
One day, I want to get Lavry Gold and Symphony to track OH or Ambient or Perc or Gt.
Core Audio's Aggregate Device is very very usefull for me.
Aggregate Device allows me to make a set consists of a couple of Audio IFs.

Please let us know the difference between AD2 and Orpheus.

[shelterr]

Will do. It should be noted that the Lavry Gold is basically unusable for tracking. It has WAY too much latency. Also, it really doesn't sound good for tracking individual instruments. Below zero it is kind of midrange and thin, but the latency is the big issue.

[Jason Rabbit]

Latency of Lavry Gold, it's good to know.
Thanks!

[Skriabin]

Originally Posted by shelterr

After over a month of involvement with this thread, countless tests, shootouts and opinions, my search has reached an unexpected yet gratifying end.

Today, I purchased a Prism Dream AD-2. I'm not really sure how I was even able to swing it without selling my Lavry Golds first, but it is paid for and should arrive Wednesday or Thursday. After hearing the Orpheus and doing endless research, I am 99.9% sure that Prism is my convertor company of choice. I will actually have both the Lavry and the Prism for at least a little while, so there will certainly be tests and shootouts done, but I am quite sure there will be no hesitation for me in selling the Golds.

That is not to say that I don't think the Golds are a top shelf convertor because they most certainly are. I have made countless records in the last 3-4 years that sound absolutely wonderful to my ears and in many cases, I'm sure I couldn't have achieved the results I did without the Golds doing their "thing". But I believe that I have outgrown that "thing". The way that the Golds focus sound into audible mid-range areas the harder you hit them can be perfect on certain mixes, but ultimately I am happy with my mixes the way they are and I don't need them to be re-focused in any way. I also think that the Golds are just counter intuitive to the way I "see" music. This isn't to say that I haven't mixed around it and produced records that sit the way I want, but I'd prefer to not have to mix around the what the Golds do to get the correct image that I prefer. Even if no one else perceives this image the way I do, I don't stop with the mix/master until it is correct to me, which can be time consuming and exhausting.

The Orpheus really opened my eyes to this imaging issue. The reason I was able to pick the Orpheus consistently as my favorite in blind tests was because of the way it allows the snare to sit in a mix and how tall it sounds. That is what I look for in a good mix/master. Sure the Golds may be wider and more detailed, but they seem less organic and true to the source material. The sound they create is very cool and practical in a lot of cases, but the mid range that is added to the snare drum causes it to be less full and more aggressive. I prefer the rounder snare tone of the Orpheus and the way the guitars seem to not interfere with the snare.

I almost just bought an Orpheus for my laptop that I use to capture my masters. This would have left me with enough money to buy a Forssell DA immediately. Although I was unable to to test the two units at the same time, I have a very strong feeling that this would have been the best combo to my ears. The detail and clarity of the Forssell DA with the organic tall sound of the Orpheus AD just seems like a great match to me. And the Orpheus AD/DA loop sounded good to me even though the Orpheus DA was pretty weak.

If I had gone months without using the Lavry Gold AD I would have considered selling it and just sticking with the Orpheus AD. But then I realized at that point I was always going to wonder if I would just be more happy with the Prism Dream. And if so, why not just roll the money from selling the Lavry into getting the Dream. After all, the Dream has to be better than the Orpheus, right? I assume it does what the Orpheus does well and THEN some. This was too exciting a proposition to pass up and so I hustled a bit and made it happen.

Once I sell the Golds I will probably use a chunk of the money to buy a Forssell DA and I will call it a day on mastering convertors. If I could find a used Prism DA-2 I would consider chipping in for that over the Forssell, but I wonder which one I would actually prefer. I know Matt Gray on this forum preferred the original Forssell DA to the Prism DA-2 and now that version "A" of the Forssell has just been released, I imagine it is even better sounding than the model I tested.

To all of the people who ran tests, offered insight, and answered questions I had about all of the different convertors in question, I thank you. I am quite sure that I wouldn't have come to the same conclusion if not for your many helpful contributions. I still think Prism is leaving a lot of money on the table by not offering an AD/DA unit comparable to the Forssell in price, but they got my money in the end anyway so what do I know!

Did you receive your Prism Dream AD? Is there a big difference between this and the Orpheus AD?

[shelterr]

Originally Posted by Skriabin

Did you receive your Prism Dream AD? Is there a big difference between this and the Orpheus AD?

I am trying to get the Orpheus back over here to do more tests compared to the Dream. So far, I am really digging the Dream.

[nms]

You certainly have some fantastic conversion on your hands Stephan. I'd love to see what's going on at a technical level as well. We've tested 50 different converters in the converter thread but missing any loopbacks of Burl, Prism Dream, or Lavry Gold.

What do you have there for DACs?
Burl Mothership
Dangerous
Aurora
?

Do you like the Dangerous DAC better than Burl? I've always been intrigued by the Burls!

[shelterr]

So it appears that I will be unable to borrow the Prism Orpheus again for the time being. I plan on keeping the Dream regardless but it's a bummer to me that the differences in the two convertors will remain a bit of a mystery. Not a total mystery, but some conclusive AB tests would have been nice given all of the time and money invested. Maybe some other time I can track down an Orpheus and do some tests.

My impression of the differences between the two Prism convertors is as follows:

The Dream seems to have a decent amount more detail than the Orpheus. The Orpheus is very big and warm sounding, but I think it is a hair muddy compared to the Dream. Nothing major, and I could certainly be happy mastering albums with the Orpheus. The Orpheus seems to make snare drums a bit bigger and deeper sounding than the Dream, but the balance of the Dream is fantastic. Better guitar texture, depth, and a nicer top end.

This may sound crazy, but with the Dream I can "feel" the pulsing of a phaser on a guitar track. I can "see" the drum room. Also, clocking my mix system to the Dream made a HUGE difference to me over the Burl internal clock. With the Burl clock engaged on my mix, I can't feel the phaser, or see the drum room. In general, the Burl clock sounds hollow, 2 dimensional, and too drum focused. The instruments really don't get their just due when clocked to the Burl. They just sound boring and flat. With the Dream clock/AD the instruments are alive and vibrant. It isn't a subtle difference and the the Dream clock/Dream AD combo was picked in a blind test.

I also noticed that my mix didn't need to be snare heavy to translate well (as was the case with the Burl clock/Gold AD combo). I can push the kick drum up and the Dream AD soaks it up in a very pleasant and organic way. I think the days of finicky kick/snare levels may be nearing an end for me. I haven't even checked out the noise shaping or D-D conversion yet, but I am sold on the Dream AD regardless.

Originally Posted by nms

You certainly have some fantastic conversion on your hands Stephan. I'd love to see what's going on at a technical level as well. We've tested 50 different converters in the converter thread but missing any loopbacks of Burl, Prism Dream, or Lavry Gold.

What do you have there for DACs?
Burl Mothership
Dangerous
Aurora
?

Do you like the Dangerous DAC better than Burl? I've always been intrigued by the Burls!

I have the Burl Mothership DA, the Dangerous DAC-ST, and the Lynx Aurora 16.

I'm not going to waste much time talking about the Lynx Aurora DA. It is awkwardly wide, hollow, crunchy and terrible. It is suitable for nothing where audio quality is actually a concern.

The Dangerous DAC is more neutral than the Burl, but not as high quality sounding. Not necessarily transparent, just flat and even. Given what I heard in my tests, I am pretty happy to have the Dangerous DAC for monitoring, but it isn't what I'm looking for with my mastering chain. The Dangerous seemed more robust than the Oprheus DA (which is a bit gutted but in a way that works well with the Orpheus AD) but in the same relative quality range.

The Burl sounds more high quality but is not an ideal mastering DAC in my opinion. The bass is too big (and sometimes a bit rumbly), and although it is wide...the width is mostly in the guitar frequency range. So you get guitars way out on the sides, but not enough information above and below if that makes sense. This was my initial impression that started this whole convertor shake up and I am totally sure now that I was right all long.The Burl DAC is very musical sounding on tracks (as is the AD) and both are a real value and a wonderful sound in a Burl Mothership for real-time inserts and track printing duties. I can't really see the value in a 2 channel Burl DA, although the B2 Bomber ADC is certainly not a bad idea for many studios.

I will be buying a Forssell MDAC-2a for my mastering DA and I am quite sure that it will feed the Dream very nicely. I love the tall and even width, transparent but big low end, the soundstage, and the overall detail. I just need to sell my Lavry Golds (which are up in the classifieds) in order to afford the Forssell DA.

In comparing the Golds and the Dream, I can honestly say that I prefer the Dream. I cannot say that everyone would and the Golds are certainly high quality. The way they focus music into the audible range is very unique and this is something that the Prism does not do. The Golds highlight guitars more than the Dream, and are wider by just a little bit. Given that you can more easily find Lavry Golds used for a reasonable price, they are still a very good value. I was told by Prism that the price of the Dream was just increased by 20% making it's new price about $9600. There hasn't been a used Prism Dream AD-2 on Gearslutz for about 4 and half years, and my brand new one is #208 so I can't imagine that there are going to be many popping up. Given that a Lavry Golds can be had for around $5000 used, they are a much better deal than the Prism, but I prefer the Prism and was able to shuffle things around and get one before the price increase took effect. If I hadn't been able to, I would have just bought the Forssell DA and continued to make music with the Lavry Golds, maybe buying an Orpheus along the way and seeing which held up best over a long period of time in real world applications.

[Jason Rabbit]

I wish I could have lend you my Orpheus.

[Ben F]

Interestingly, a friend from another mastering studio did a shoot out between his 10 year old Prism ADA-8XR and the Orpheus, with Lavry Gold mkIII as the AD. He Much preferred the older Prism. Said it sounded bigger than the Orpheus.

[Ruairi]

Originally Posted by Ben F

Interestingly, a friend from another mastering studio did a shoot out between his 10 year old Prism ADA-8XR and the Orpheus, with Lavry Gold mkIII as the AD. He Much preferred the older Prism. Said it sounded bigger than the Orpheus.

The ADA-8XR is a fine converter but that has not been my experience re the Orpheus.

[shelterr]

Originally Posted by Ben F

Interestingly, a friend from another mastering studio did a shoot out between his 10 year old Prism ADA-8XR and the Orpheus, with Lavry Gold mkIII as the AD. He Much preferred the older Prism. Said it sounded bigger than the Orpheus.

Are we talking about the DA in the ADA-8XR vs the DA of the Orpheus into the Lavry Gold AD? I haven't heard the Prism ADA stuff, but the Orpheus DA into the Gold AD was a REALLY bad combo. The Orpheus ADDA loop was pretty good, but the Orpheus DA was lacking with other AD's.

[Jason Rabbit]

Could we conclude this topic as this:

(1) Orpheus with its own DA-AD is so-so good for mastering.
(2) "Forssell MDAC-2 DA + Orpheus AD" seems better than (1).
(3) "Prism DA-2 + Prism AD-2" seems better than (2) and way better than (1).
<(3) is the combo Sterling Sound's main combo.>

Avoid Combos are:
(1) Orpheus DA + Lavry Gold AD
(2) Orpheus DA + any other brands' AD

My personal remained Mystery:
(1) What about Orpheus DA + Prism AD-2
(2) What about Prism DA-2 + Orpheus AD
(3) Which is better (1) or (2).
(4) Why there's no one mentioned Apogee.

[Ben F]

Originally Posted by Jason Rabbit

Could we conclude this topic as this:

(1) Orpheus with its own DA-AD is so-so good for mastering.
(2) "Forssell MDAC-2 DA + Orpheus AD" seems better than (1).
(3) "Prism DA-2 + Prism AD-2" seems better than (2) and way better than (1).
<(3) is the combo Sterling Sound's main combo.>

Avoid Combos are:
(1) Orpheus DA + Lavry Gold AD
(2) Orpheus DA + any other brands' AD

My personal remained Mystery:
(1) What about Orpheus DA + Prism AD-2
(2) What about Prism DA-2 + Orpheus AD
(3) Which is better (1) or (2).
(4) Why there's no one mentioned Apogee.

In my experience, unless you are doing loop back tests,if you are going out of a DA into an AD that would mean you are doing analogue processing. So whatever DA you are using has less of an effect on the result, as the audio is going to be changed somewhat anyway. You could argue that the transparency of the DA is not as important so any of the top end manufacturers would do.

The AD however does make quite a difference, especially if you want to hit it hard. I don't think you can go wrong with the Prism AD-2, Lavry Gold, or Forrsell. They are all mastering grade. I doubt most clients would even be able to pick the difference to be honest. It's what you do with your tools in the analogue domain that counts. With high end conversion, you are talking very minor differences in terms of actual end results for clients, which is what matters the most. People would be very surprised to hear the conversion used on many a great sounding masters done by top tier MEs...very surprised.

[Ruairi]

Originally Posted by Jason Rabbit

Could we conclude this topic as this:

(1) Orpheus with its own DA-AD is so-so good for mastering.
(2) "Forssell MDAC-2 DA + Orpheus AD" seems better than (1).
(3) "Prism DA-2 + Prism AD-2" seems better than (2) and way better than (1).
<(3) is the combo Sterling Sound's main combo.>

Avoid Combos are:
(1) Orpheus DA + Lavry Gold AD
(2) Orpheus DA + any other brands' AD

My personal remained Mystery:
(1) What about Orpheus DA + Prism AD-2
(2) What about Prism DA-2 + Orpheus AD
(3) Which is better (1) or (2).
(4) Why there's no one mentioned Apogee.

In my experience there are bad converters, good converters and great converters. I've never experienced certain pairs going together like a complimentary shirt and trousers.

A great DA feeding a great AD in a mastering context will sound great. Substitute either with a lesser quality of any degree and things will go downhill. That's really all there is to it.

[HolB]

Hi,

And what about the Black Lion White Sparrow ?

Best,

[firubbi]

@ shelterr .. thanks for those samples. can you please include apogee symphony. thanks

[shelterr]

Originally Posted by firubbi

@ shelterr .. thanks for those samples. can you please include apogee symphony. thanks

I don't have one to test but I have no reason to believe that any 8x8 FireWire interface sounds better than the Orpheus. If I were a native guy, I wouldn't hesitate to track records using an Orpheus.

[James_Avery]

I presume you guys are aware Prism Sound are coming out with 2 new products shortly...

Prism Sound News: 25th Birthday surprises at the 2012 AES Convention

...no official word yet on what they are. But seems pretty obvious one of the products is a 2 channel Orpheus.

[shelterr]

I was not aware of this, but I had a feeling this was the case when I emailed Prism a couple months ago. I thought it was just wishful thinking on my part, but it looks like he was trying to let me know.

[firubbi]

hahah.. fantastic. nice idea of promotions
about those 3 samples: its really hard to identify which is which. after an hour of listening (scope system+genelec) i was able to grab the orpheus ad/da sample. :D but not all the time... so i guess for regular studio work its not urgent to buy the top notch...

[nms]

Originally Posted by James_Avery

I presume you guys are aware Prism Sound are coming out with 2 new products shortly...
...no official word yet on what they are. But seems pretty obvious one of the products is a 2 channel Orpheus.

This is SO what they should be doing right now. The market is prime for high quality units similar in size & Price to the Lynx Hilo. A lot of people just don't need or want to shell out for the 8 ch units like LIO8/ULN8/Orpheus etc. I will have big respect if the unit is also an upgrade to the Orpheus' conversion and not just a repackaging. I won't be parting with my Hilo anytime soon but more flavors in the small format would be a great thing.

[firubbi]

wish for a 4 ch i/o or something very new..