Prism Orpheus for mastering? And also a question for the folks at Prism...

[Slug1]

Originally Posted by shelterr

There is no "agreeing" with nms because he isn't showing me anything. He isn't answering my questions, he isn't giving me audio clips to listen to. He is just telling me that in theory, the Hilo is the most transparent convertor and that means I should get it. Have you ever heard Burl convertors? Used them? Everything in your post sounds like second hand Gearslutz rhetoric. I have heard/owned MANY different hi-end convertors and I mix and master records constantly. Have you ever used a Lavry Gold? Compared it the Hilo? Compared the Hilo to the Orpheus? Do you have ANY actual knowledge on this topic whatsoever, or have you just heard that MEs favor transparent convertors and heard the Hilo is the most transparent?

If you have NOTHING to contribute to the very detailed and specific questions and ideas raised in my original post, and haven't used ANY of the gear I am inquiring about, why are you posting in this thread?

I tend to shy away from ignorant conversation but couldn't help myself.

nms stated in his post
"So the golden question.. why not buy a Lynx Hilo then?"

I was agreeing with THAT statement.

Also, in your first post, you stated, "Making a Prism Orpheus device similar to the Lynx Hilo or Antelope 384 might be killer too." I own a Hilo, so I have used some of the gear that you were inquiring about.

But still, you're looking for something else here, so believe me, I won't be posting on this thread again. Trust me.

And to have a little fun before I leave. You seem frustrated. I tend to be a bit more laid back, with no need to be nasty to people. What keeps me this way is constant sex with amazingly beautiful women. You should try it some time. Sorry GS, but I couldn't help myself. I usually have more class, but he swung hard at me and I had to hit back. Please forgive me for being childish. Its not like me. But sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.

[shelterr]

Your contributions will be sorely missed. Your ZERO contributions.

[nms]

Oh brother. If anyone helps you it'll be a miracle with your attitude. Good luck. Hope you find one guy who uses an Orpheus for mastering so he can give you the all important random Internet guy thumbs up. Get off the forum and go demo one somewhere. If you're not looking for the most technically superior/transparent/accurate converter of the mentioned options in your range (Hilo) you're looking for a flavor. And that's subjective IE NO ONE here will be able to tell you whether or not it's going to be a good fit for over $4k (a large chunk of that going to preamps and extra channels you don't need).

[shelterr]

Originally Posted by nms

Oh brother. If anyone helps you it'll be a miracle with your attitude. Good luck. Hope you find one guy who uses an Orpheus for mastering so he can give you the all important random Internet guy thumbs up. Get off the forum and go demo one somewhere. If you're not looking for the most technically superior/transparent/accurate converter of the mentioned options in your range (Hilo) you're looking for a flavor. And that's subjective IE NO ONE here will be able to tell you whether or not it's going to be a good fit for over $4k (a large chunk of that going to preamps and extra channels you don't need).

You guys are funny. Other people on this forum HAVE offered me some insight. Don't be upset because you have not. Have you noticed how much better my attitude has been towards reasonable and informative posters? It is not a coincidence.

Also, am I to assume that you didn't like my answer to your loopback test? I'm pretty sure if I chose the Hilo as the good sounding one, you would be letting me know about it by now. If the Red one is not the Hilo, your specs have led you astray as to sound quality.

The blue one sounds bad, the red one sounds good. Whichever is which, that is the truth. I pretty much figured it out on the first listen but I was shocked that it could be that obvious, so I listened a few more times. Sorry dude, but listening tests should be more difficult than that. Can YOU not hear the difference? Re-label those two tests any way you like, I'm never gonna guess them incorrectly. And if you want people to think your new mastering AD/DA is the best there is, NEVER post that test for anyone.

[fuse]

Just wondering if you're looking for insight or just affirmation of your own thoughts.

For me all mastering AD/DA are attempts to sound as transparent as possible so they pretty much should sound the same. The differences may be to a certain extend noticeable but interpretation of these differences are all susceptible to personal preferences. So it makes sense that picking your favorite would be based on personal experiences.

[shelterr]

I am clearly looking for insight into people's experience with the Prism Orpheus. In my experience, the sound of convertors varies wildly from unit to unit. Some people think convertors make little to no difference. I hear major differences, even among top of the line convertors and I try to make sure that the conversion I choose benefits my ability to create the best sounding product I can. Maybe I am more picky than most regarding conversion, or maybe I just hear the differences more clearly. Either way, I am very curious as to how the Orpheus convertors stack up to other hi-end models, and any feedback regarding this is greatly appreciated by me.

[polybonk]

Interesting. I like the transient details and image on the red loopback more. I pick it every single time in a blind test. I am very curious to find out the difference? Is the blue one the Hilo?

[shelterr]

Originally Posted by polybonk

Interesting. I like the transient details and image on the red loopback more. I pick it every single time in a blind test. I am very curious to find out the difference? Is the blue one the Hilo?

He hasn't spilled the results, but it's pretty obvious that the Blue one is the Hilo because he would have responded in his last butt-hurt post if I had guessed wrong. I too, would never be able guess that test incorrectly. The red is plainly better and the blue sounds pretty bad to me. Maybe you could run the red file through your Orpheus? I'm not sure if there is any testing protocol that you would need to know, but I assume if you just ran it out and back in that would suffice. On second thought, why bother...we've all seen the specs!

But seriously, that would be an awesome sample to hear.

[nms]

Originally Posted by shelterr

Other people on this forum HAVE offered me some insight. Don't be upset because you have not.

And if you want people to think your new mastering AD/DA is the best there is, NEVER post that test for anyone.

lol. Do you honestly think that I could care less one way or another whether you like it or not? Do you think it would change my thoughts on it or its sound in real world use whatsoever because a guy with a Lavry Gold & Burl mothership could tell the file that's hit 2 stages of conversion from the source in a 50/50 guess? Shelfer pls.
A lot of great ears can attest to the quality of the Hilo in use. There's been no debate yet from anyone and those files were actually from another thread.

I'll post up 4 files when I'm in my studio later today. If you guess correctly with those and the Hilo is your least fav then we'll know its not for you. Don't get too cocky yet there muffin.

If you can pick correctly I'll be very impressed with your ears.

I'll give you 4 files. One original, one Hilo, one Orpheus, and one LIO-8 which I think is another better unit than the Orph.

[polybonk]

Originally Posted by nms

a guy with a Lavry Gold & Burl mothership could tell the file that's hit 2 stages of conversion from the source in a 50/50 guess?

So I take it that the blue was the Hilo?
I dont think that it was necessarily a guess btw. I was picking the difference every time in a blind test. How many times did it pass through?

A little off topic, you don't know anyone with a JCF Latte that could pass that file through do you?

That was quite a good file for the test I thought btw.

[teebaum]

i used the orpheus for mastering. my setup need 8 a/d & the orpheus ist for my opinion mastering grade.
he's not 100% transparent, give you a litte euphoric twist, slightly extra open and broad, good, transients, nice stereoimage.
i changed to mytek 8x192, more neutral, same league - just a matter of taste

[shelterr]

It really wasn't a 50/50 guess. I would never guess that test wrong. How many passes was that run thought the Hilo? Also,if you have Orpheus related test files, why would you wait this long to offer to show me? Do you own an Orpheus? Either way, some background info on the nature of the tests would be nice, and I will gladly evaluate them.

Originally Posted by nms

lol. Do you honestly think that I could care less one way or another whether you like it or not? Do you think it would change my thoughts on it or its sound in real world use whatsoever because a guy with a Lavry Gold & Burl mothership could tell the file that's hit 2 stages of conversion from the source in a 50/50 guess? Shelfer pls.
A lot of great ears can attest to the quality of the Hilo in use. There's been no debate yet from anyone and those files were actually from another thread.

I'll post up 4 files when I'm in my studio later today. If you guess correctly with those and the Hilo is your least fav then we'll know its not for you. Don't get too cocky yet there muffin.

If you can pick correctly I'll be very impressed with your ears.

I'll give you 4 files. One original, one Hilo, one Orpheus, and one LIO-8 which I think is another better unit than the Orph.

[Jason Rabbit]

Originally Posted by shelterr

I was curious what people's experiences are with the Orpheus as mastering convertor? Has anyone compared the DA to any others? I would be really interested to hear what ME's on this site as well as the folks at Prism think of these ideas.

If you give me a short audio clip, I can do Orpheus DA > +??dB > Orpheus AD(with OVK) if you want.

I compared Orpheus to Symphony.
I liked Symphony DA better than Orpheus.
However Orpheus AD sounded way way way better at tracking.
A vocal track recorded through Orpheus AD sounded rich like Neve.
A vocal track recorded through Symphony AD sounded like too sharp and thin.

[Jason Rabbit]

Originally Posted by nms

I'll post this for you. One is the original, the other has been looped through the Hilo DA to AD. Can you tell which is the original? If anyone else here with good ears & monitoring wants to check it out and see if you can tell which is the source/better feel free to comment whether you can tell or not. Conversion has certainly come a long way.

I like BLUE more.
Blue is more Punchy, Expressive, Emotional.
Red is not as alive as BLUE. Red sounds normal.
BLUE sounds like it passed through a comp.
That may mean that BLUE is altered a bit?
So I guess RED is the original.

[MAzevedo]

nms - when you post those files, I think it would be most useful if the original was labeled and the other three blind. Unless there was something euphonic going on, I assume that the original is going to sound better than anything that has gone through a conversion loop. What I want to hear is which converter loop is most like the original, not which of the four options is 'best'.

[jrhager84]

Originally Posted by MAzevedo

nms - when you post those files, I think it would be most useful if the original was labeled and the other three blind. Unless there was something euphonic going on, I assume that the original is going to sound better than anything that has gone through a conversion loop. What I want to hear is which converter loop is most like the original, not which of the four options is 'best'.

I disagree, as that assumes one of them will sound better. Sometimes the best processing is no processing.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Gearslutz App

[nms]

Alright. When I get into my studio in an hr I'll post original, Hilo, Orpheus, LIO8 and will label the orig?

@jasonrabbit - Yes the Red is the orig. Funny that one person says it sounds better and one person says it sounds worse. That's the nature of subjectivity though. I'll send you the 24 bit original of that one we just used for the red/blue comparison of you can run it thru your Orph. I prefer it to the one I'm posting shortly.

@Shelterr - I have single, 4 pass, & 10 pass DA-AD files (music and test tones) for about 50 different interface/converters for that Ultimate Converter loopback thread.

[Jason Rabbit]

Yeah, it's funny and interesting.
I agree to jrhager84, Sometimes the best processing is no processing.
And yet it's also true that Sometimes we want nice colloration at conversion.
We often pay for some expensive units to achieve "One and Only sound" they create.

Now, I am more interested in which Converter was used when the original track was done.
Protools HD 192 I/O?

[nms]

I have no idea on the converters that were used for that track as it was given to me by another member to run through the Hilo.

Alright..

I've posted up 4 converter files for Orpheus, Hilo, LIO8, and Lavry Black into a new thread here:

Lynx Hilo, MH LIO8, Orpheus, Lavry Black Shootout (Music & test tones)

[shelterr]

Originally Posted by Jason Rabbit

If you give me a short audio clip, I can do Orpheus DA > +??dB > Orpheus AD(with OVK) if you want.

I compared Orpheus to Symphony.
I liked Symphony DA better than Orpheus.
However Orpheus AD sounded way way way better at tracking.
A vocal track recorded through Orpheus AD sounded rich like Neve.
A vocal track recorded through Symphony AD sounded like too sharp and thin.

The original RED R&B wav from earlier in this thread run through the Orpheus AD/DA loop would be GREAT to hear. I really like the sonic quality of that clip and I would really like to hear the character of one pass through the Orpheus. If you wanted to do that clip run at 0db, +1db, +2db, and +3db (to show how well it clips) that would truly be incredible. Do you have control of the input trim on the AD of the Orpheus through the software control panel? This is something I was curious about because I have the inputs of my Golds calibrated +3db and I find that I get a more bold sound this way.

That's interesting about the DA in the Orpheus. The reason I started this whole thread was because lately I have been considering getting a new 2 channel DA to feed my Lavry Golds. As much as I love the DA in my Burl Mothership, it almost seems to separate my mix elements TOO well. Guitars are wide and clear, but not connected with the bass in the mix. Bass is audible and in it's own space, but it is not in the same space as the kick drum, which seems to be all by itself. The fidelity is great, but I have determined that there is something counter intuitive about the imaging for my personal preference. While looking into possible DA options I stumbled upon the AD shootout where I preferred the Orpheus to my Lavry Golds (even though I blindly guessed which file was the Lavry Gold, I still prefer the Orpheus in that test). This led me to then be curious about the DA in the Orpheus, because if the DA was in the same class as I suspect the AD to be in, it would be really nice to get an AD/DA combo for more options. But due to the firewire only connectivity of the Orpheus, i would only be able to use the full AD/DA loop on mastering projects that I do for other people and not my own personal mix/master projects.

If the DA in the Orpheus were to be lackluster (as you are implying) then the whole idea of an Orpheus 2 channel AD/DA standalone unit would be LESS appealing to me, although I would clearly still just need to hear it for myself. At this point my AD is not of concern to me, although a second option would be nice. I'm more interested in getting a quality DA that images the way I like for printing mixes and masters.

[Riccardo]

The Prism and Burl DA are similar but yet different.
Similar as in they are both good converters.

Now as I see you know the Burl quite well I'll try if I can describe the Prism quickly and with few words in direct comparison (same source, calibrated, instant switching. plus about three and a half year direct experience).

We are talking about differences here not which one is better just to be clear.
The Prism is audibly wider then the Burl.
Sibilance is audibly more pronounced in the Burl.
The weigh in the bass region as you may have suspected is different. They both sound great. The Burl seem to put the kick and the bass slightly more upfront in the presentation. However careful comparison over time shows that the Prism also goes down low very well, it is just a bit more lean that the Burl.
They are both good DA converters. I use both, the Prism works with more material than the Burl.
Quite a few very experienced mixers and producers could not remotely discern between the two in my room while to me their distinctive character is just night and day (yes this is s bit sad, if you think of the time and effort we all go through to set up our rooms and test every new piece of "better" gear that comes out)

[nms]

Some people have a real knack for differentiating converters easily. It's hillarious that there are some who still insist it's all the same and that people are fooling themselves.

@shelterr- while I might not have got on with your mannerism smoothly I do have to give you credit for having a good ear and knowing & identifying what you like.

For those wondering, he chose the Orpheus first and Hilo second in the 4 converters test. The listening content isn't ideal but the true test will be after jason records the earlier (better) loop through his Orpheus. If he prefers the Orpheus there then he obviously favors its sound. The previous PM I received said he liked the Orpheus least which just goes to show how subjective color is.

[thermos]

Wow, i want to hear the Lynx Hilo now. Like the op, I also have Aurora converters. Fine for tracking, but I generally don't like the sound of them. The Forssell MADA-2 is my most loved piece of audio gear, but if the Hilo is that good I want to hear it...

[shelterr]

I think the Prism DA would better suit me. I still need to hear it, but the Burl seems too focused on kick drum and not the overal low end. Things just aren't cohesive enough in the low end for the way I mix. Works great on other people's tracks. The Burl is a very high quality DA and I really like it for printing individual tracks and real-time inserts (accompanied by the Burl AD). I'm just looking for my personal DA soulmate for my master chain and I suspect the Burl is not it for me. I'm hoping that the Orpheus is. Every time I hear the Orpheus in a loop back test it agrees with me. But I have never heard a test of JUST the Orpheus DA next to others with a common AD.

[shelterr]

Originally Posted by thermos

Wow, i want to hear the Lynx Hilo now. Like the op, I also have Aurora converters. Fine for tracking, but I generally don't like the sound of them. The Forssell MADA-2 is my most loved piece of audio gear, but if the Hilo is that good I want to hear it...

Would you be interested in running the Red R&B loop through the Forssell AD/DA? I would really like to hear it because the MADA-2 is in my price range as well.

[shelterr]

Also, it should noted that I don't actually use the convertors in my Lynx Aurora. It is just for digital I/O and I will sell it the moment the Burl AES card released.

[Jason Rabbit]

Originally Posted by shelterr

The original RED R&B wav from earlier in this thread run through the Orpheus AD/DA loop would be GREAT to hear.

I could, but It'd be way better nms does instead of me.
I though nms was doing it with his Orpheus.
The Orpheus clip must be done in same condition as the Hilos clip, that means I shouldn't do with my Orpheus.
As long as the guy(who did Hilos clip) can made Orpheus clip and were going to do so, I don't dare cut in or bother it.

As nms has other converters, he can do more variations also.

Let's wait nms's finish making Orpheus clip.

[nms]

we've been waiting on you for the Orpheus man! I don't have one. Someone else ran the files I have. I PM'ed this to you:

"Here's that file for the orpheus loop

Red R&B sample

standard procedure. unity gains I/O from your DAW with shortest good cables you have. 44khz, 24 bit recording, choose channels that aren't being accessed by anything else, monitoring turned off, any warping turned off."

[Riccardo]

If you want to be 100% sure it works for you the only way is to get it and use it in your environment and within your workflow for a good six months. I know this is not ideal let alone economical (buying six DA and re-selling five of them). What these testa are sometimes useful for is narrowing the choices, hopefully to just two or three contenders. Having said that there are dealers out there that would be happy to send you test units.
The Burl is a fine converter, it is slightly more "studerish" than the Prism if you wish.

Originally Posted by shelterr

I think the Prism DA would better suit me. I still need to hear it, but the Burl seems too focused on kick drum and not the overal low end. Things just aren't cohesive enough in the low end for the way I mix. Works great on other people's tracks. The Burl is a very high quality DA and I really like it for printing individual tracks and real-time inserts (accompanied by the Burl AD). I'm just looking for my personal DA soulmate for my master chain and I suspect the Burl is not it for me. I'm hoping that the Orpheus is. Every time I hear the Orpheus in a loop back test it agrees with me. But I have never heard a test of JUST the Orpheus DA next to others with a common AD.

[teebaum]

Originally Posted by Riccardo

If you want to be 100% sure it works for you the only way is to get it and use it in your environment and within your workflow for a good six months.

i'm right there with you!