What's up with speaker cables?

[John Moran]

Originally Posted by dcollins

Does Fluke make a meter that measures musicality, emotional evolvement, or overall sound quality?

If so, what model?


DC

We've been using this app with varied success :

Suck-O-Meter

[807Recordings]

Originally Posted by dcollins

Does Fluke make a meter that measures musicality, emotional evolvement, or overall sound quality?

If so, what model?


DC

Ya the Fluke Tone.

If I can honestly see tests in a double blind that show two cables being picked out as better than I will believe it. I will say though when I was doing reviews for a audio magazine a few years ago some really expensive cables where brought in. The prices that could get a pretty decent car.

At this time I was reviewing some new speakers and was about to give them a not reviewable due to their sound being so off. My editor came over and said just stick in your cat5 braided ones. I was like it won't make that much of a difference. Surely enough the sound became for lack of a better word normal.

We did some some measurements which had us believe in the expensive cables there was some sort of circuit going on. As I could not obviously cut the little black boxes off these cables to look we had to leave it at that. Either way this brand of cable is one of the top rated Audiofool cables out there.

You may not be able to measure EQ quality, compressor, etc but conductivity falls well with in the realm of science and measurements, and words like musicality are not sensible. Imagine wiring your house or apartment building and saying something like my lights seem a little to white because of these cables.

[Broyhillio]

I actually have a pair of the above mentioned speaker cables, opened the black box and pulled out an inductor roughly the size of my thumb. I honestly think it sounded better with them in, kinda made some of my harsher sounding music collection a bit more forgiving.

Though they stayed out of the speaker cables, the idea is making it's way into my approach in dealing with harsh-ish recordings. e

[Transistor]

Originally Posted by da goose

Hey Marc,

why not check this?
Marktplaats.nl > van den Hul M.C. D 352 Hybrid superkabel 2 X 3 meter - Audio, Tv en Foto - Kabels

There are some other nice options there as well.
Found my w&m cables there at 60 euro.

I think they're the ones I'm using. They work. The sound comes out like I feel it should and they can survive a bit of handling. The Kimbers I had (old-school PBJs between a RIAA and an amp) had to be put into storage when a wifi router was installed one floor below. It was like a swarm of bees had moved in for a while.

r,
j,

[lucey]

Ultimately its about listening, not belief or marketing or even (gasp) science.

There is no "transparent" anything. That has to be said. And every 8 feet of cable has an effect. The degree of change is always small. But what does "small" really mean? It means you may not hear it in some systems, no fault there. In refined set ups it may be important for a variety of factors.

Stranded copper vs. solid copper vs. the litz wire I use here does have a slight tone in each case. If you don't hear any differences, fine ... probably not the best forum to say so, definitively, for everyone else.

The harmonics of music are so subtle and yet so crucial. Musicality cant be measured, thankfully, or there'd be no need for audio engineers with unique taste ... everything would be the same.

Speaker cables may be changing small things, true, but nothing is transparent and small is relative. It's all about the system and the person.

If you don't believe or don't need to change your cables there's an easy solution .... don't bother. It's a pain in the ass to do the listening tests needed to sort it out for yourself in your set up , so just skip it.

[jtwrace]

I use all DH Labs

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by jtwrace

I use all DH Labs

That looks a lot like lawnmower cable, except in a white jacket.

I think they should call the company "Coppersonic."


DC

[jtwrace]

Originally Posted by dcollins

That looks a lot like lawnmower cable, except in a white jacket.

I think they should call the company "Coppersonic."


DC

What?

If you browse the site you will find more then one cable that is on the home page. This are what I use to be exact. DH Labs Silversonic - Products - Q-10 Signature Speaker Cable

[807Recordings]

Originally Posted by dcollins

That looks a lot like lawnmower cable, except in a white jacket.

I think they should call the company "Coppersonic."


DC

Which of course would not matter in a double blind test correct?

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by jtwrace

What?

If you browse the site you will find more then one cable that is on the home page. This are what I use to be exact. DH Labs Silversonic - Products - Q-10 Signature Speaker Cable

Ah yes, sorry. Yours is different. I believe it's standard Mil-Spec Silver plated Copper with a Teflon™ jacket. Very common in high-quality applications, like aviation.

And by wire standards it is expensive, I think it's around USD$10-15 per foot.


DC

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by 807Recordings

Which of course would not matter in a double blind test correct?

Then all that matters is the sound.

In other tests fear, insecurity, and self-doubt takes over, especially when it comes to cables.

I've probably done as much blind testing as anyone when it comes to interconnects, and sometimes there is a difference, but most of the time if the electrical parameters are roughly the same no one can pick it.

Solid-core is interesting in that it does seem to always sound different than equivalent stranded models even though it should be the same. Perhaps it's just easier to terminate properly.


DC

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by dcollins

Zip cord should be avoided as the cable needs to be twisted, not with the conductors side-by-side.

Dave, what are the issues with zip? Talking under 10 feet/12 gauge, Bryston amp to NS10 speakers (used in mixing, very rarely in mastering).
Would it be worth going to lawnmower cord?

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by Rick Sutton

Dave, what are the issues with zip? Talking under 10 feet/12 gauge, Bryston amp to NS10 speakers (used in mixing, very rarely in mastering).
Would it be worth going to lawnmower cord?

Twisted pairs reject external fields. The tighter the twist the better, although it's arguable how much difference it makes in the real-world.


DC

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by dcollins

Twisted pairs reject external fields. The tighter the twist the better, although it's arguable how much difference it makes in the real-world.


DC

Thanks Dave. Yeah, I just always thought that was a non-issue when at speaker level in normal situations. If they ever put a radio transmitter or a power station on my property line I'll check into it!

[807Recordings]

Originally Posted by dcollins

Then all that matters is the sound.

In other tests fear, insecurity, and self-doubt takes over, especially when it comes to cables.

I've probably done as much blind testing as anyone when it comes to interconnects, and sometimes there is a difference, but most of the time if the electrical parameters are roughly the same no one can pick it.

Solid-core is interesting in that it does seem to always sound different than equivalent stranded models even though it should be the same. Perhaps it's just easier to terminate properly.


DC

AC voltages, not DC tend to work more efficiently on how the electrons flow with things like Litz wire over solid core. Usually though this in the Mega watt area with very high GHz frequencies. I doubt it would matter in audio.

For some reason the electrons in AC tend to want to move towards the edge of the surfaces. More surfaces in Litz wire type configurations result in a better transfer. Don't quote me on that but that was the best explanation I understood from one of our PHD engineers before. Maybe I misunderstood that.

Someone with more knowledge on this is more than welcome to correct that.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by lucey

Ultimately its about listening, not belief or marketing or even (gasp) science.

True!

There is no "transparent" anything.

It depends on your definition of transparent. There are for sure audio gear and links in the audio chain which can be designed and realized for audible transparency.

That has to be said. And every 8 feet of cable has an effect. The degree of change is always small. But what does "small" really mean? It means you may not hear it in some systems, no fault there. In refined set ups it may be important for a variety of factors.

Nobody in the world can hear the effect of a properly built, soldered and installed 8 feet line level cable. Yes, you can measure a lowpass effect at a couple of hundreds of kHz or so with suitable measurement gear but it will not have an audible effect.

Stranded copper vs. solid copper vs. the litz wire I use here does have a slight tone in each case. If you don't hear any differences, fine ... probably not the best forum to say so, definitively, for everyone else.

It's not very difficult to build a cable that misbehave.

The harmonics of music are so subtle and yet so crucial. Musicality cant be measured, thankfully, or there'd be no need for audio engineers with unique taste ... everything would be the same.

Electrical circuits, electrons and conductors don't know the difference between fundamental and harmonics. It's all voltage and current which depends on load and drive impedance. Audio is extremly slow and easy to understand once it is in the electrical domain.

Speaker cables may be changing small things, true, but nothing is transparent and small is relative. It's all about the system and the person.

Depends on amp and speaker but for sure you can take source impedance, cable resistance and inductance into consideration when designing the speaker for no ill effect. Speaker cable capacitance have no effect direct on audio but can be a problem for poorly designed amps which can lead to audible effects.

If you don't believe or don't need to change your cables there's an easy solution .... don't bother. It's a pain in the ass to do the listening tests needed to sort it out for yourself in your set up , so just skip it.

Yes, pain in the behind is the right word and even more of a pain to do it right and avoid errors which leads to wrong conclusions.

Happy listening!

/Peter

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by 807Recordings

For some reason the electrons in AC tend to want to move towards the edge of the surfaces. More surfaces in Litz wire type configurations result in a better transfer. Don't quote me on that but that was the best explanation I understood from one of our PHD engineers before. Maybe I misunderstood that.

That's how it works. The charges repel and move away from the center of the conductor. Litz wire just has more small conductors all strung together. There is skin-effect at any frequency, but in audio there is no real difference. If you're using RF or are the power company where losses at 50/60Hz make a $ difference, then using different wiring makes sense.

But skin-effect never makes distortion, it's a purely resistive loss. In fact, there is no mechanism in wire that ever makes distortion


DC

[johnnyc]

Originally Posted by Frank_Case

Also, the cable capacitance is in PARALLEL with its inductance.

No.

Most of the world models coax like this:

Originally Posted by Frank_Case

This means that the series cable impedance of 16 ohms will form a voltage divider between the preamp's 1500 ohm impedance input

This is very bizarre. You go to great lengths to claim that the reactance is in parallel, but yet now wish to use it in series as a voltage divider???


Btw Mogami has a nifty little utility to calculate frequency response of mic cables. They split the capacitance around the cable resistance while ignoring inductance all together (most likely because the inductance is negligible)

Frequency response calculation of microphne cables

2534 (quad) has less bandwidth than 2549 (regular), which agrees with analysis, measurement, and listening.

[johnnyc]

Back to speaker cables, anyone try Canare 4S8 or 4S11? They are quad configurations, seems like an inexpensive way to try out another topology other than zip cord.

Canare Corp.: Speaker Cable-Star Quad: speaker Cable - star quad(4S8)

[Zownd]

Originally Posted by johnnyc

Back to speaker cables, anyone try Canare 4S8 or 4S11? They are quad configurations, seems like an inexpensive way to try out another topology other than zip cord.

Canare Corp.: Speaker Cable-Star Quad: speaker Cable - star quad(4S8)

Looks good,.. don't see any pricing though.

[Table Of Tone]

HF travels on the surface of the cable so, based on this, I run my tweeters with 1 mm, silver, solid core stuff (not stupidly expensive) and my woofers with thick, good quality copper 500 strand stuff.

The result is that I can hear more what's going on overall and it's also obvious if I've f**ked something

[TRANQUILO]

[Zownd]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

HF travels on the surface of the cable so, based on this, I run my tweeters with 1 mm, silver, solid core stuff (not stupidly expensive) and my woofers with thick, good quality copper 500 strand stuff.

The result is that I can hear more what's going on overall and it's also obvious if I've f**ked something

Well, I started this thread because I don't know what to get and why.

on first sight your idea seems really good, on the other hand I am not so sure.
having different resistance on each driver might not be a good idea.
I am pretty sure that the cables internally are of the same diameter.
The other thing is that the low frequencies might need more feed, they reveal only a small part of the spectrum. I believe that in a 5.1 setup the woofer only gets fed frequencies below 200hz.

Again I am not sure,.. because the woofer draws the most of the amp.

thanks for chipping in :-)

Cheers,
Mark
P.S. I have no clue on the science! even after reading some of the replies in this thread. my questionmarks are coming from my logic and might be utterly wrong.

[TRANQUILO]

stranded 10 AWG copper wire from home depot, the black stuff normally used for low voltage lighting 12 volt systems.... Sounds fine to me. Although silver wire is a better conductor and gold is the best conductor however copper is not that far behind as far as conductivity. We use copper in the electrical field all the time for power systems. So it seems normal to use copper for speakers too. where does one get gold or pure silver 10 awg wire?

10

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by TRANQUILO

stranded 10 AWG copper wire from home depot, the black stuff normally used for low voltage lighting 12 volt systems.... Sounds fine to me. Although silver wire is a better conductor and gold is the best conductor however copper is not that far behind as far as conductivity. We use copper in the electrical field all the time for power systems. So it seems normal to use copper for speakers too. where does one get gold or pure silver 10 awg wire?

Gold is a worse conductor than Copper.


DC

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by Zownd

Well, I started this thread because I don't know what to get and why.

on first sight your idea seems really good, on the other hand I am not so sure.
having different resistance on each driver might not be a good idea.
I am pretty sure that the cables internally are of the same diameter.
The other thing is that the low frequencies might need more feed, they reveal only a small part of the spectrum. I believe that in a 5.1 setup the woofer only gets fed frequencies below 200hz.

Again I am not sure,.. because the woofer draws the most of the amp.

thanks for chipping in :-)

Cheers,
Mark
P.S. I have no clue on the science! even after reading some of the replies in this thread. my questionmarks are coming from my logic and might be utterly wrong.

Fair play

Checkout some stuff N have a listen, see what works for you.

I also first thought about the difference in resistance but when you look at differences in the voice coil, magnet, frequency response, etc, of both a woofer and a tweeter, things start to fall into place a little better.

Top end is clearer and more revealing through solid cable, IMO.

Silver is more conductive than copper, which in turn, is more conductive than gold, BTW.

[Zownd]

Originally Posted by Table Of Tone

Fair play

Checkout some stuff N have a listen, see what works for you.

I also first thought about the difference in resistance but when you look at differences in the voice coil, magnet, frequency response, etc, of both a woofer and a tweeter, things start to fall into place a little better.

Top end is clearer and more revealing through solid cable, IMO.

Silver is more conductive than copper, which in turn, is more conductive than gold, BTW.

By now it seems the only way. I ordered some stuff developed by NASA and was quite affordable. (i know some of you doubt that,.. so do I)
anyway I will try some different options and write a piece for a dutch magazine if the results are interesting

[johnnyc]

Originally Posted by Zownd

Looks good,.. don't see any pricing though.

The 4S8 is about $.60/foot and the 4S11 is about $1.20/foot depending on where you shop, so pretty reasonable.

[joeaudio]

Canare 4S11.
Looks nice, is flexible and inexpensive.

I like these guys:

Speaker Cable at Blue Jeans Cable

They'll do a pro job terminating any way you like.

Joe Y.