Dealing with clients that react to the sound of your speakers rather than the master

[MASSIVE Master]

Reality....unattended sessions mean lack of experience? You're shooting down an awful lot of engineers with that comment.

I'm not trying to shoot anyone down -- I said nothing about unattended sessions meaning lack of experience. I just have a lot of clients that more or less insist on attending that I probably wouldn't have otherwise.

(or did someone else mention something that I missed...?)

[Way Of The Heart]

Brother strdsk, I understand your intent and honestly no one here has to justify or validate their own motives and actions. We all operate from a set values unique to us. That being said, I think the analogies you provided are incomplete.

As example:

Never before has the chef at my favorite restaurant allowed his diners to all come into his kitchen as he cooked and offer up critiques as how he may better do his job.

When it comes to AUDIO the client is the cook, here. We take our audio delight to the ME to have it GARNISHED and made to be more appealing. Our concern as the cook is that some of the vision we had for our masterpiece will be diluted in the garnishing process. (and as the original OP suggested, this is what is perceived often, just by playing audio through his high-end system) It is the responsibility of the ME to transmit their intention of 'upleveling' the presentation without changing the core of it. In fact, if you can't do that, then you should not be in a service business of this kind or you should stay away from clients and work unattended.

My auto mechanic would look at me like I was crazy if I demanded I watch him (and commented during) him dropping my transmission.

Not if you built and designed the car, which is exactly what an artist does with a song. Any mechanic who wants to stay in business would have to learn to tread with great sensitivity and respect for someones 'baby'. Believe me as an artist and producer, both from many years, I know how sensitive artists can be about their songs. And honestly they should be. Many artists are sensitive people, highly insecure, lacking self vision, self love and inner confidence. A record is one of their few avenues for self upliftment and strengthening identity. An ME is wise to heed to that while upholding their own ground and establishing operating rules.

People these days hear with their eyes and I think that's why the music business is in the peril it's in....

I will say, at 45 years of age it has never ever been a better time to be a musician, engineer, producer, artist etc. We have all tools available at our fingertips, instant communication and worldwide distributing in a day. The game has changed, it always does. Music doesn't stop being produced, it cross-pollinates and becomes something new. I think if you go through the 'client' list of the MEs on this board you will hear some great music, mastered with conscious intent, recorded well, combining organic sounds with computerized synth, dance and pop. All of is valid and all of it is perfect in its own way. Younger children are learning quicker, understanding audio and music, creating amazing cutting edge video/audio/onine/offline masterpieces. The arts are alive and vibrant... this is the best time in human history if we take the time to be aware and conscious of it. I for one am grateful.

All is well~

[huejahfink]

Originally Posted by MASSIVE Master

(or did someone else mention something that I missed...?)

Yes! From tthe point you quoted onwards, strdsk is referring to another forum member called "Reality". I can see the confusion though.

[strdsk]

Massive....that comment of mine wasn't aimed at you at all. It was, rather, aimed at a poster named "Reality"...sorry for the confusion.

Rodney...again...I appreciate both your spirit and input, but I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on some points here. And that's OK too! I just don't see my analogies as being incomplete at all actually. I don't see the client as the sole cook at all. I do, however, see them as the sous chef. And without me, the line cook, the meal is incomplete. Having said that, once the plate is on my side of the kitchen...it's on my side of the kitchen. They put it there and I trust that they trust in me to deliver my end as deliciously as possible.

And you're right...if I designed and built my own car and it was my "baby"...I would have the right to stay during the transmission job. But getting back to what I originally said...any mechanic allowing you to do so would make damn sure you paid for that luxury as it is not a necessity. It's assumed that if you're Mr. Porsche himself and you can afford to design and build your own car...that you could afford to hire Mr. Liberal mechanic who will open his floor to you. But again....that's not who I'm dealing with here most of the time. These are not the Elvis Costellos of the world hiring Mr. Calbi for mastering. These are the Schitzo Freakos hiring me. The budget there is worlds apart and thus...so are the luxuries that come with the experience.

Your last statement that "it has never ever been a better time to be a musician, engineer, producer, artist etc" is perhaps the one I most disagree with though. You're right again. It is a CONVENIENT time to be an artist with all the DIY abilities at your finger tips. But my original statement if you go back and read it had nothing to do with being an artist. Being an artist is being an artist. I said in my comment that the music BUSINESS is in the crapper and writing some songs in a basement is simply not business in my book. The word business involves exchange of cash by definition. Go ask most record labels, record stores, and studios and you'll see that many of them would disagree with you...it's a horrible time to be conducting music BUSINESS right now actually. The arts will never die completely, but the arts BUSINESS however is in real jeopardy and that's not my opinion...it's a humble fact sadly. No one buys records at the music store, studios are closing due to folks thinking they have knowledge just because they scored a Digi02, and who can afford to buy $100 concert tickets? It's for this reason real artists aren't getting signed to real labels. It's nothing personal...it's just BUSINESS.

[Jerry Tubb]

Every room sounds a little different.

Get your room to sound as flat & detailed & natural as is practical.

Know the room/monitors better than anyone, and how it translates.

Retain control of the EQ decisions with attending clients.

Best, JT

[Virtalahde]

I just ask them to trust me because I know what I'm doing, and if they're not happy with the master after a home listen, I can always do a revision.

Works every time.

[TRANQUILO]

[TRANQUILO]

work with your client's until it sound's right.

[Way Of The Heart]

Originally Posted by strdsk

.

Your last statement that "it has never ever been a better time to be a musician, engineer, producer, artist etc" is perhaps the one I most disagree with though. You're right again. It is a CONVENIENT time to be an artist with all the DIY abilities at your finger tips. But my original statement if you go back and read it had nothing to do with being an artist. Being an artist is being an artist. I said in my comment that the music BUSINESS is in the crapper and writing some songs in a basement is simply not business in my book. The word business involves exchange of cash by definition. Go ask most record labels, record stores, and studios and you'll see that many of them would disagree with you...it's a horrible time to be conducting music BUSINESS right now actually. The arts will never die completely, but the arts BUSINESS however is in real jeopardy and that's not my opinion...it's a humble fact sadly. No one buys records at the music store, studios are closing due to folks thinking they have knowledge just because they scored a Digi02, and who can afford to buy $100 concert tickets? It's for this reason real artists aren't getting signed to real labels. It's nothing personal...it's just BUSINESS.

We certainly disagree here. And yes, it is only your opinion, not fact. The music 'business' as it was crumbled. Thank goodness. It was a horrible business model with few people making money, generally never the artist. Todays labels are smaller, more stable, expanding, entrepeneural and require the artist and label to be creative and work hard. That is a real business model. They utilize/develop many of the social media outlets that reach more people even quicker than ever. Many 'old schoolers' won't change their thinking to match this new generation so they lose out on the pot of gold that is here. The ART business is not in 'jeopardy', it is thriving. It is just a different business model than before.

"In a time of drastic change it is the learners who inherit the future. The learned usually find themselves equipped to live in a world that no longer exists."... Eric Hoffer

I think what you call a 'real' artist may differ from what I myself or a younger person would call a real 'artist'. Personally I have no judgment. I respect all who create and think some of the best music we know is yet to come.

We all have a world view. Yours is not concrete. In my world view, concerts are consistently sold-out, music is being bought, downloaded and enjoyed at the highest rate in human history. Studios are not closing because of the M-box, some studios are closing because their services are irrelevant anymore. Still, look at the Studio Building Forum. Some major studios are being built from the ground up today. All that is happening is a leveling of the playing field, and honestly it is about time. Again a great time to be in the business if you are willing to adapt. All of it is in transition towards a better place.

Cheers!

[Fabmaster]

Originally Posted by strdsk

Yep....no attended session offered here anymore either for just this reason....

You don't do attended sessions solely because the clients might not be
familiar with the sound in your studio?

[Ben F]

Clients come to mastering mostly to hear their mixes on a proper full range system and have a good old chin wag. Otherwise they would just do unattended. If a client said that the system sounded strange or different I would be concerned, it should sound natural.

[strdsk]

Tranquilo and Virtalahde...I totally agree.

Fabmaster....no. I don't oblige attended sessions for a multitude of reason if you read my prior posts.

Ben F...it's actually very common for clients in mastering suites all over the world to say their mixes sound "strange or different" beacause they are used ot monitoring on playback systems that are not near as linear.

Rodney...no it's a fact. If you honestly think that "few people made money" back in the old music business days, I'd be curious as to what you consider little money. I'm not talking about 1920's music business on the chitlin circuit here where blues artists got pimped and never saw a dime. I'm talking about artists from the 60s up to the 90s. The same artists who cry the blues that they are now broke. Not because they were underpaid like they make it sound, but rather because they put their millions up their noses and spent like drunken sailors. Remember that these are folks who got paid...lots...to do what they love and mismanaged their finances. It's just like the housing market now...where people moan that their current home is ONLY worth
$500k. They're mad because they paid $700k 10 years ago. Truth be told....we were all spoiled living in a virtually non existent inflated world. Now it's not that we're being paid too little for our homes...we're being paid what they're actually worth and are just in shock due to the contrast. If you wanna' talk about folks who were underpaid let's talk about heart surgeons...who save lives every day. I can't sympathize with an artist who's mad because they "only" make $900k a year to play guitar. I've been a starving artists my whole life...and likely just as good an axe slinger as any player who has played in Green Day or Nirvana. Todays labels are "more stable" and "expanding"?? Who are you getting your facts from? Please hook me up with them! Yes...their art reaches more social media folks...the same who file share, listen for free, and don't pay for their music. I'm by no stretch an "old schooler" and think out of the box just as well as any thanks. There's a "pot of gold" here now? The arts are not in jeopardy...art business is however. The first thing they cut in school systems, unless you live in some snooty old money community, IS the art programs. Folks these days can barely afford to buy lunch let alone drop $5k on a mastering job. Those with masters degrees are out of work for God's sake. Art is just not a priority right now. It is to you and I, but that's because we're the ones making it...ask the general consensus. I'm sorry, but if you honestly believe that "concerts are consistently sold-out and music is being bought at the highest rate in human history" you're just wrong. Again, it's not my opinion...check statistics, talk to venue and record store owners, and see for yourself. And yes...by and large commercial studio ARE folding due to folks having a go for it on their own at home with an M-Box. And how are studio services "irrelevent"...ever? If a talented engineer is on staff there, regardless of gear or cost, that's invaluable right there! This is not about leveling the playing field. Folks chime in on the builder's forum so they can try turning their garage into Electric Lady Land. Sure....some big commercial studios will open up now. But come back and talk to me after they've made it past their first 5 years in business...as in...breaking overhead in a behemoth like that. You can flock to areas like New York, LA, and Nashville all you want, cause' "those are the recording meccas of the world" but then you bump into saturation issues...there's a studio on every corner! Do you solely make your living as a artist or engineer Rodney?

[Joelistics]

Originally Posted by Ben F

Clients come to mastering mostly to hear their mixes on a proper full range system and have a good old chin wag. Otherwise they would just do unattended. If a client said that the system sounded strange or different I would be concerned, it should sound natural.

Hey Ben, thanks for contributing.
I have a hard time making sense of your last statement. I work in a great sounding room with a 1st class monitoring chain that produces masters which translate beautifully. Why should I be concerned about 2nd guessing what feels natural to my clients? Are you telling me you never have clients come in and say "holy s**t that's what my mix sounds like!?"

[bendermastering]

Originally Posted by Ben F

Clients come to mastering mostly to hear their mixes on a proper full range system and have a good old chin wag. Otherwise they would just do unattended. If a client said that the system sounded strange or different I would be concerned, it should sound natural.

What's natural for someone may not be what you're expecting... God knows what their references are sometimes!

Keep in mind we're talking about a small percentage of clients who attend sessions and feel a monitoring system weird. Most of the times these client they never even heard a real full range system! So it's normal that they feel discomfort or uneasy while listening to one in the first time...

[Fabmaster]

Back on topic.
"I'm a mastering engineer. This is my mastering studio.
I've been making masters here for X years. I know this system
intimately. I'm an expert at mastering. You've hired me
to master your music. Please trust that I will make the
best possible master here in my mastering studio for you.
If you're not happy with the reference (disc? files?...)
I will do any revisions you require".

A true pro would not need to ask this question on a web board.

Fab

[Way Of The Heart]

Originally Posted by strdsk

Rodney...no it's a fact. If you honestly think that "few people made money" back in the old music business days, I'd be curious as to what you consider little money. I'm not talking about 1920's music business on the chitlin circuit here where blues artists got pimped and never saw a dime. I'm talking about artists from the 60s up to the 90s. The same artists who cry the blues that they are now broke. Not because they were underpaid like they make it sound, but rather because they put their millions up their noses and spent like drunken sailors. Remember that these are folks who got paid...lots...to do what they love and mismanaged their finances. It's just like the housing market now...where people moan that their current home is ONLY worth
$500k. They're mad because they paid $700k 10 years ago. Truth be told....we were all spoiled living in a virtually non existent inflated world. Now it's not that we're being paid too little for our homes...we're being paid what they're actually worth and are just in shock due to the contrast. If you wanna' talk about folks who were underpaid let's talk about heart surgeons...who save lives every day. I can't sympathize with an artist who's mad because they "only" make $900k a year to play guitar. I've been a starving artists my whole life...and likely just as good an axe slinger as any player who has played in Green Day or Nirvana. Todays labels are "more stable" and "expanding"?? Who are you getting your facts from? Please hook me up with them! Yes...their art reaches more social media folks...the same who file share, listen for free, and don't pay for their music. I'm by no stretch an "old schooler" and think out of the box just as well as any thanks. There's a "pot of gold" here now? The arts are not in jeopardy...art business is however. The first thing they cut in school systems, unless you live in some snooty old money community, IS the art programs. Folks these days can barely afford to buy lunch let alone drop $5k on a mastering job. Those with masters degrees are out of work for God's sake. Art is just not a priority right now. It is to you and I, but that's because we're the ones making it...ask the general consensus. I'm sorry, but if you honestly believe that "concerts are consistently sold-out and music is being bought at the highest rate in human history" you're just wrong. Again, it's not my opinion...check statistics, talk to venue and record store owners, and see for yourself. And yes...by and large commercial studio ARE folding due to folks having a go for it on their own at home with an M-Box. And how are studio services "irrelevent"...ever? If a talented engineer is on staff there, regardless of gear or cost, that's invaluable right there! This is not about leveling the playing field. Folks chime in on the builder's forum so they can try turning their garage into Electric Lady Land. Sure....some big commercial studios will open up now. But come back and talk to me after they've made it past their first 5 years in business...as in...breaking overhead in a behemoth like that. You can flock to areas like New York, LA, and Nashville all you want, cause' "those are the recording meccas of the world" but then you bump into saturation issues...there's a studio on every corner! Do you solely make your living as a artist or engineer Rodney?

My apologies to the orignial OP: This will be my last online reply to this poster.

strdsk, all is well. You are entitled to your opinion and perspective and I can respect them. Still your 'facts', tell a popular 'victim' story of the music / arts business and they do not ring true for everyone. The 'glory' days are not gone...they are here and now. Honestly, there is more happening than you may be aware of. It is too easy and all too common for 'artists', 'engineers', 'producers' etc. to self-validate or justify thier lack of current success on 'something that happened or is happening out there', instead of embracing the advent of or becoming part of a new business model/solution or generation. You do have a choice brother strdsk, and whether you choose to accept it or not has no bearing on the choices available.

Your 'statistics' on studios closing, and record shops struggling are again based on a worn-thin concept. I recall an interview with Richard Branson when he made the decision to close his Virgin Records stores and embrace downloads/online CD distibution. Sales and money didn't stop flowing, the avenue of the flow changed. He never looked back. Times change. And they have... changed. You mention you have been a 'starving' artist your whole life? Why? I doubt you would want a life like that? Do you blame the business? The 'unsupported' arts community? Have you ever considered it may be you, who at the end of the day is responsible for your own success and happiness? If you don't want to 'starve', why settle for it? Why not adapt and change your thinking?

As for labels and artists, with respect I have friends and associates who own small and mid-size labels who are booming. One of my friends recently bought the building he was in downtown LA for his label and distribution. He has been signing alternative artists for 15 years and makes a wonderful living at it. And while you may not consider them 'real artists'...they work much harder and more creatively than the majority of artists of yesterday. You see this with rap/pop/rock/alternative etc. The music 'business' is booming. It is primarily an independent/ major independent market. A wonderful flexible market.

I have friends (from 4 popular major label bands, all evenutally dropped over the years) who have to work music related or other 'day jobs' along with their music ventures. All of them enjoying being a part of the business, caring for thier families. Some (including myself at times in the past) being hired as an independent musician.

And yes my friend, it is about leveling the playing field. Do you want to know where a great number of the players in that field are? Right here. This board is chock full of artists / engineers, producers etc. of the new generation Many were here 10 years ago also and honestly I have been posting with some of these same players for nearly 15 years. Same players, different game. I can understand if someone does not like the rules of the new game or the game itself. That is OK, you don't have to play, many people choose to stand on the sidelines and watch others enjoying the game. The game lives on, always will. BTW, many of the 'heavy hitters' in the studio business are still 'hitting' heavy. They got creative and adpated. Some are on this board, some are guests on the board and some are not.

You asked do I make a living 'soley' as an artist and engineer? Yes and No. I make my living in the creative arts period. I own an 'arts' business and my music studio is one creative outlet and asset to that business. I have 3 employees who I pay through the 'arts'. I support literally 1000's of artists, thier famlies etc. through the arts 'business'. Again, the 'business', whether it be music, crafts, dance, painting, sound design, music gear etc. is thriving. I have toured as a professional bassist and guitarist. Sometimes I produce artists, sometimes I create new products, sometimes I experiment with different entrepreneurial ventures...all based on the arts. I always have to be flexible. I have a family to care for and a mortgage to pay. On the inner life side of that I am a minister and a public speaker and enjoy philosophy, spirituality and great minds. I have a large library of great books and study theology, metaphysics and pyschology. I have written and released 3 books independently, audio programs, music CDS etc. I study natural medicine and natural healing and provide spiritual counsleing at other times. Right now I am steeped in a music production / voice-over work for a new product that takes up 100% of my time. Bottom line strdsk, I do whatever it takes to the best of my ability to care for my family through the creative arts.

strdsk, the value of my home dropped considerably over the past 3 years. I understand what that feels like. I just recieved my yearly appraisal from the State Of Texas and it is lower than it has ever been since I bought my home 8 years ago. It is truly unfortunate but what can I do but move on? Be grateful for what I have and make it work. We are all in the same boat and it is a great boat at the end of the day if we choose paddle our own oar. Should I complain and become a victim of decietful government? Who should I blame? Why not take responsibility for myself instead? Life has peaks and valleys and I have found that I cannot accurately describe the whole mountain ridge If I look up at peak or in a valley.

I believe we all deserve the best in life and I wish that for you. I also believe we all have to take responsibility for our own lives and our outcomes and adapt to the good that is waiting for us to claim. I hope to always strive for that and I wish that for you also.

[Ben F]

Originally Posted by Joelistics

Hey Ben, thanks for contributing.
I have a hard time making sense of your last statement. I work in a great sounding room with a 1st class monitoring chain that produces masters which translate beautifully. Why should I be concerned about 2nd guessing what feels natural to my clients? Are you telling me you never have clients come in and say "holy s**t that's what my mix sounds like!?"

Never had that happen. Most of them pull stellar mixes that actually require very little processing. And the clients that don't should trust your judgment and room. I would not think a client knew less than myself about what sounds good, I can't understand how a decent mix room could sound so different in sound balance to a mastering room to be honest. Unless the client had no idea how to set up their speakers and acoustics.

It looks like you have an incredible studio, I suspect most of your clients would be blown away!

[Fabmaster]

This man's studio is in his house.
He looks thrilled to have these two young wanna be's
in his home.

DTV:Carl rowatti trutone mastering - YouTube

[Joelistics]

Originally Posted by Ben F

Never had that happen. Most of them pull stellar mixes that actually require very little processing. And the clients that don't should trust your judgment and room. I would not think a client knew less than myself about what sounds good, I can't understand how a decent mix room could sound so different in sound balance to a mastering room to be honest. Unless the client had no idea how to set up their speakers and acoustics.

It looks like you have an incredible studio, I suspect most of your clients would be blown away!

Absolutely! Nearly all people love hearing their music on my speakers. It's not that they are unhappy, but more common that they want more of something they actually haven't heard before (strangely!).

Also the problem practically never arises with pro mix engineers. The artist however may not even have been present during mixing and has only heard his mix in his living room and ipod earbuds. Not uncommon for them to request EQ changes that don't make sense to someone who knows the environment very well, right?

Maybe it's different for you but I have experienced this problem among my peers before...

[strdsk]

Rodney...that's nice that you've apologized to the poster, but I won't. I'm simply defending unvalidated remarks, comments, and accusations being widly thrown at me. Thrown at me, mind you, for my initial statement that I don't want strangers in my home and that it's simply more economical to not have them there...which it is...period. There is no way a swank commercial studio can offer their clients as low a rate as I do and still pull profit after paying off their overhead. That's nice that you work an arts based job to earn your living. I, also, earn my living in the arts and have for the last 10 years so I'm apparently doing something right. Sitting here are bickering back and forth with folks who are not career mastering engineers, however, is both futile and a moot point. By your estimation kids in med school should just drop out, buy an art gallery/recording studio, and start raking in the cash because they're doing that well these days? It's true that not everyone is a victim of the modern age, yes, but the "popular victim story of the arts music business" IS a very real one that rings all too familiar. The glory days are gone and there may be more happening under the surface of this business than YOU are even aware of. Have you ever considered that? As an artist these days you write a tune that sounds like everyone else's, sign to a subpar indie label, pray your single sells via digital download, and get a royalty check periodically....maybe if you're lucky. There really aren't many other choices available sadly.
Big studios ARE closing...this is not something I can lie about. Virgin Mega stores HAVE been closing for years now, Best Buy (the thunder ***** of ALL music stores) IS closing many of their chains. Go to one that's left and see for yourself how they've downscaled their "music" section. It went from taking up the whole store to taking up 1/4 of their buildings. And that's because record sales are doing well? It's a fool's paradise and I suspect that you're being led down the primrose path to think that "money and sales are still flowing". If you honestly think that my lack of riches is solely dependent upon botched marketing and poor work ethic on my part, you should run for President...in the Land of Make Believe with Mr. Rogers. It's horrible out there...regardless of what profession you're in right now. To answer your question, I CHOOSE to stay in this business as a starving artist solely because I'm in love with the art end of it. Having said that I refuse to pretend that everything is OK and turn a blind eye on what's really going on in the industry. That's exactly how this business has landed itself in the mess it's in and I want no part of that.
Your comment that you "have friends and associates who own labels" clarifies to me why you're taking the stance you are...to stay diplomatic...perhaps to even earn brownie points for your next release. The operative word here is that they also own "distribution" hubs. Which basically means they sell and cut themselves in on profits generated from the hard work of other artists and labels. That, for some reason, is about the ONLY comment of yours I both agree with and believe in. That comment more accurately describes where the business mentality is at these days...enjoy the fruits of other's labor. I call it pimping....you call it whatever you want. If that's what it'll take for me to make the same "wonderful living" they are at the game, I'd rather stay poor and hungry thanks. Please share the names of your friend's studio and labels if you're so proud of them. I'm sure Sony Records is quaking in their boots. "Business is booming"...really?
I never challenged that this board had talented posters...so where you're coming from there...again...who knows. And you're right...art will never die. You're also right when you say the same 5 hard hitters are still raking in the dough after 3 decades in the business. How that's "leveling the playing field" however I'm not sure.

[Joelistics]

Originally Posted by Fabmaster

Back on topic.
"I'm a mastering engineer. This is my mastering studio.
I've been making masters here for X years. I know this system
intimately. I'm an expert at mastering. You've hired me
to master your music. Please trust that I will make the
best possible master here in my mastering studio for you.
If you're not happy with the reference (disc? files?...)
I will do any revisions you require".



Fab

What happened to working in a service industry and delivering what the client wants? If he requests a brighter sound are you going to deny him a brighter sound because you "have been a mastering engineer for X years". I agree, it's important to stay in charge but it's a fine line! If I had hired you and you told me the above I would probably not use you again.

Originally Posted by Fabmaster

A true pro would not need to ask this question on a web board.

I don't quite see why you feel the need to get personal? I'm not about to lose any sleep over whether or not you think others are professional but I would ask you to REREAD the first post that describes what this thread is about. Do you understand what the italics mean in this context? They mean "share your experience" not "please tell me!! I am lost!!!"

[huejahfink]

I wish there was a bit less talk about what a 'real pro' or a 'real ME' is around here (on the board not just this thread).

We're all here because we do some (pre-?)mastering and want to talk about it.

It's true that there are different levels of experience and some have more expensive facilities than others, but that rarely has anything to do with the subject at hand.

Can we please not just cut out the competitive insults thinly disguised as commentary? It's just disrespectful.

[Fabmaster]

Guys like you post just to post.
You're not really interested in an answer.

Here's a couple anyway:

"You've put your project in the hands of an expert,
sit down, shut up, and let me work".

"We can sit here, ponder and execute your stupid EQ
suggestions and redo the whole project next week".

Fab

[huejahfink]

In the cases where client suggestions and mastering engineer suggestions don't meet up, whether this is borne of an attended or unattended session, I usually find that explaining your reasoning in very clear terms to be the best bet. This still puts the client in the hotseat to make the judgement call, but to do so armed with the benefit of the ME's experience as well as their own. If they are not entirely convinced - then hopefully you can come to a reasonable compromise that's going to benefit both the client and their listeners.
Obviously it's not just about rolling over if the client screams 'more bass' and you know it's going to cause problems downstream. That's part of the job to advise about any potential issues. It's really their project at the end of the day though. I for one really don't want to infer that the client is stupid or ill equipped to make decisions about how their own projects should sound. And I would be incredibly put off by any mastering engineer who spoke that way about my choices or suggestions if I was in the clients seat. I see the mastering role as that of an technical adviser and assistant/facilitator in this regard. Not a dictator.

[Riccardo]

Let's carry on in a civil manner.
I don't think opinions are as widely different as they seem to appear. Rather a mixture of different areas and range of clients maybe.
How you set up your operation is and remains personal. Geographical areas also play a big difference here. I don't necessarily see it as lack of professionalism.
The above comment by Fab is spot on as the client should of course trust the person he/she chooses for the job. Having a recording studio in the same complex here we see mixes ranging from good to very good with the occasional few not so good ones. I have also had on a few occasions either musicians or producers bringing in work that was recorded and mixed in a less than ideal environment whilst still fully convinced their product sounded stellar, which it didn't when listened to in a proper environment. This is what I believed the op was referring to. In my experiences it was either a home set up that the musician fully believed to be very good and obviously wasn't or a studio with some monitoring/room issues that he/she had paid dearly for and absolutely unaware of the resulting issues in the mixes.
There is a difference between listening to a customer that asks for an airier version and letting them take the driving seat and equalising to their taste.
ymmv

[Twerk]

Originally Posted by Fabmaster

A true pro would not need to ask this question on a web board.

Fab

With all due respect, part of the path of becoming pro is learning. And this used to be a really great place to learn!

[Fabmaster]

^ Good point. I rescind that statement.

Fab

[strdsk]

But that's exactly the issue here. 99% of the time, clients misunderstand an attended session as letting them take the driver's seat. It has nothing to do with opinion or musical taste. It has everything to do with the mastering engineer knowing his system, as I mentioned earlier, better than anyone else in the world. If you add low end to the clients liking (which usually ends up being too much), they walk with a product that sounds like all hell, then they tell strangers that you mastered it. What respectable engineer wants their name on that garbage? Then, to compound issues, they eventually realize that the master is horrible and expect you to fix it for free because "you" did it...or allowed it to happen. On the flip side of things, if you police the attended session and refuse them the right to add too much bass to the master....you're the creep and they run your name through the mud in that respect. "I paid him and he wouldn't do this and that for me!" I never said that I wouldn't let folks use a reference...nor did I say that I wouldn't remaster a mix until it ends up to their taste. But for me to have to babysit, hold hands, and explain my every move to 5 guys who usually can't even agree amongst themselves...all for the low rate I'm getting cause' I'm not in a swank suite....is simply not worth my time, effort, and energy. My personal opinion....

[Reality]

Originally Posted by strdsk

But that's exactly the issue here. 99% of the time, clients misunderstand an attended session as letting them take the driver's seat. It has nothing to do with opinion or musical taste. It has everything to do with the mastering engineer knowing his system, as I mentioned earlier, better than anyone else in the world. If you add low end to the clients liking (which usually ends up being too much), they walk with a product that sounds like all hell, then they tell strangers that you mastered it. What respectable engineer wants their name on that garbage? Then, to compound issues, they eventually realize that the master is horrible and expect you to fix it for free because "you" did it...or allowed it to happen. On the flip side of things, if you police the attended session and refuse them the right to add too much bass to the master....you're the creep and they run your name through the mud in that respect. "I paid him and he wouldn't do this and that for me!" I never said that I wouldn't let folks use a reference...nor did I say that I wouldn't remaster a mix until it ends up to their taste. But for me to have to babysit, hold hands, and explain my every move to 5 guys who usually can't even agree amongst themselves...all for the low rate I'm getting cause' I'm not in a swank suite....is simply not worth my time, effort, and energy. My personal opinion....

ifyouresoinsecurewithyoureroomthatyoucannotturnaroundandtellyourclientthattheyshouldtakeamasteredsongouttotheircar(intoascenariothatmightrepreisenttherealworld)andhavealistentoittomakesureitwassomethingthattranslatedatleastintotheirrealworldscenario,
maybeyoushouldreconsiderthewayyouapproachyourclients.fromwhativegatheredfromyourpostsandyourstyleofposting,yourenotreallyinterestedinofferinaprofessionalproduct.ithinkmanywouldunderstandandagreewiththispost.

[strdsk]

Reality....I have no problem with taking mixes out to a car for real life testing...if it's something that "I" feel necessary to double check "my" work. However, when I'm sure of my work why should I waste my time and the time of my clients when I know for an absolute fact that the mixes have been mastered properly and will translate well? Again...hand holding. I think instead that maybe YOU need to start noting that no one on this forum has disagreed with anything that I've said except for you and one other guy. Similarly, no one has taken sides with you. Before you even begin to rub shit into my face and note that "no one has gone out of their way to AGREE with my posts" consider that it's perhaps not because they disagree with what I'm saying, but rather because they're trying to stay diplomatic so they can further cash in on folks like you who need their egos stroked in front of their girlfriends while they sit in mastering suites that look like a film set from "A Clockwork Orange", talk on their cell phones to their "producers", and ACT important and like they actually have a clue. And/or perhaps it's because they lack the balls it takes to admit that the best way to do things isn't always the old way of doing things. I have no incentives (that's a fancy way of saying nothing to gain) in telling you the truth. In fact...look...I lost you as a potential client by giving you the straight dope. If you want to continue to pay more money so you can sit with a four star chef and pretend that your presence while he cooked you your meal made it what it was...by all means...go ahead. But I will end by saying that there's oxygen on my planet. On yours...I'm not so sure anymore.