Why is master not loud like music on the radio

[dynamaster]

I master my tracks in logic and I setup my chain with a combination of AU and Waves processors.
Sometimes with Build in audio interface and sometimes with the Profire 610.

At last I maximize the track at 0db with L3 Maximizer and sounds nice and loud in the studio. ( I turn the volume up )

And when I play it on my HIFI is not so loud like a Populaar CD I buy in the stores and not loud like the radio station i swicth to.

BUT I MASTER AT 0 db.

Is this because my Mac Built in audio interface?(Gear don't have the power)
Is this because of my Pro-Fire 610 audio interface?(Gear don't have the power)
Is this because of my chain?

or Is this because of Engineer knowledge? ( Technics )

I'm very curious what the answer to this thread is.
I know I'm not the only one with this problem.

Thanks.

[tablo]

Please don't try to master your music as loud as the radio...

[dynamaster]

Ok I agree - But should be the almost the same loud as the shop cd I buy.
Without removing the clairty of the vocals and the dynamics.

[frans]

google the words "loudness war"
Digital audio doesn't work very well when it's pushed to the edge (=digital fullscale=0dB) and to halfway keep the sound how it was it takes an audio professional with good ears, good gear and a good room to judge. (that costs money)
Getting audio as "loud" as on the radio is roughly the same process as slamming a 20-foot car into a 18-foot garage until it fits. Of course it gets damaged. So either you use the volume knob or you damage the audio. As a lot of mobile players have a function that levels music according to target loudness and radio stations smash the audio anyway, there is little sense in slamming your audio files - only to show that you didn't educate yourself about the whole thing.

[Kaoz]

Slightly off topic - but I find it slightly funny that your name is dynamaster and you're having issues with loudness.

Back OT - you've got to realize that what you hear on the radio isn't what you'll hear on a cd. In essence, your "problem" is a combination of knowledge and equipment.

[mljung]

Originally Posted by frans

Getting audio as "loud" as on the radio is roughly the same process as slamming a 20-foot car into a 18-foot garage until it fits

What a wonderful and precise description!

::
Mads

[dynamaster]

Maybe I use the wrong term.

Should be as loud as the CD in the stores ( House - Dance compilations cd's )

[mljung]

Originally Posted by dynamaster

Maybe I use the wrong term.

Should be as loud as the CD in the stores ( House - Dance compilations cd's )

Same problem as the car above

But if you don't care about squashing the life out of your work - more experiments with compression and heavy limiting should be able to take you there; it's not your interface, or computer that limits you from doing it.

If you succeed you can change your name to dynakiller



::
Mads

[dynamaster]

hahahaha very Funny mljung.

Dynakiller is removing the dynamics and that is exacly what I don't want to lose in the Master.hahahahaha.

I will take your advise and spend more time to get more experience with waves comp and limiters

[Chris Bauer]

Mastering engineers use a number of techniques to get commercial mixes loud. One of these is to accentuate frequencies that the ear is particularly sensitive to. The other is to control the amount of low end (which uses a great deal of headroom). By cutting away some of the sub bass, you can normally push the track level up a little higher. But really your first goal should be to make the track sound as good as possible and only then focus on loudness.

[MAzevedo]

Originally Posted by dynamaster

hahahaha very Funny mljung.

Dynakiller is removing the dynamics and that is exacly what I don't want to lose in the Master.hahahahaha.

I will take your advise and spend more time to get more experience with waves comp and limiters

This is the crux of the thing: your peak level can't go higher than 0 dB. If you want the average level of the mix to be higher, you have to reduce the dynamic range between peak and average. There is no way to get a super loud master without destroying the dynamics, hence the comments you've gotten.

As an additional note: perceived loudness is enormously impacted by mix balance and clarity. I've heard plenty of poor mixes smashed to an RMS level of -5 dBfs and still sound tiny, and great mixes at -12 dBfs that sound huge. If you are already doing 2 to 4 dB of limiting and still not getting the loudness you want, the problems are probably in the mix.

And another thing: The Waves limiters are not amazing. There are lots of great options out there however, I'm currently in love with the PSP Xenon, the FabFilter ProL is a nice one too.

[Jomox]

Try other limiters (Such as Sonnox)

[wado1942]

Do a search on this forum for "loud" and you'll find about 500 posts from this month alone about it.

The short story is as others have said, you can get "loud" but not without sacrificing "good" and it's not easy. If you listen to that type of music in clubs or wherever, the less crushed music sounds A LOT better. Also, the L3 sucks, even the L2 is better.

[da goose]

Or you let someone professional do your mastering?
A professional has a lot of ways to make things loud without losing all the dynamics though you will always lose dynamics, no matter how hard you try. You simply can't put 11 liters of water in a 10 liter bucket.

[ProfessorNick]

Some people are dogging you about the radio comment, but your original post says you want it as loud as a commercial CD. Nothing wrong with that.
Look at your mixes first. You should be getting a pretty respectable RMS level before you do the final snipping with a mastering limiter. This all lays in the mix.
Also, try using some enhancing effects (like waves maxxbass which can help make the lows "sound" louder without adding too much more volume). This can help make the bass seem louder, so you can actually turn it down and get that extra space for other sounds.
Modern music makes use of many maximizing techniques to make it loud. Look into side chain compression/ducking to get your kick to pop out.
Like Chris Bauer said in his post, once you remove superflous sub bass you can boost everything else to get things louder.

[Red Mastering]

2 weeks ago I upgraded my power amp to hypex, and since then going through my cd collection to accommodate to new sound;
rush album - snakes&arrows - it's very loud,
red lights on my mytek dac are almost full time on
rms around 5-6dB!! - madness....
yet this album sounds very good (24/96 version)
then I play, last Janes Addiction album - second song, rms get to 2.6dB!!
this is madness, and it sounds terrible awfully bad...
thin overcompressed, distorted sound, can't listen to this album,
and as a great fan of JA I made myself promise - I won't buy any music from them anymore, ever! it's just a rape on audio
and what for ??? guys have money, fame, they also been in business for 25 years or so, so they know&understand (I presume) the audio,
yet their record (exactly the same with previous JA album - unlistenable) is not pleasure to listen to, and music is good, just this mad mad loudness war..
getting to the point, I think both albums - rush and JA were abused during mastering,
and still rush sounds great, JA sounds awfull,
main reason behind it would be 1. mix - some great mixes can get a lot of abuse
2. master, some people don't have a skills (yes Vlad the Drac Meller:( and some people can - rush - brian gardner

[ShadowAMD]

It's a combination of many things, a good clean mix can really help a loud master.. You need room to compress then limit on a final track.

If you have too much hi and low information, e.g. no HPF' and LPF's being used on E.g. guitars.. (I work with Seven and Eight strings, in terms of frequency I don't think there will be much at 18KHZ).

Plus you should be looking (Not Solely) for RMS, mastering to -0dB with a limiter doesn't really mean much.

If a mix hasn't been adequately compressed, your liable to pumping..

There is a lot too it, I would do lot's of research or pass it to a ME.

Musical Note Frequencies - Guitar and Piano

Things like the above will help you.

[dynamaster]

i study all your posts and I came to one conclussion.

Does'nt matter digital or analog mastering my macbook build in interface or Profire 610
The skillz and experience is the game.

The source sounds - low and high end - mix - Rms - dynamics - gear .

Is'n true?

[MOBMastering]

Loudness Loudness Loudness... Always a failure...

[Peaks]

Just produce 2 masters. The dynamic one that doesn't care about loudness and a loud focused one. Give the dynamic one to the radios so they can process that with their equipment, and offer the two others separately.

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by dynamaster

i study all your posts and I came to one conclussion.

Does'nt matter digital or analog mastering my macbook build in interface or Profire 610
The skillz and experience is the game.

The source sounds - low and high end - mix - Rms - dynamics - gear .

Is'n true?

Pretty much, better gear will give you better results.. But nothing compared to your skills.

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by MOBMastering

Loudness Loudness Loudness... Always a failure...

Agreed, but customers want it and customers get it.

[Greg Reierson]

Originally Posted by ShadowAMD

ustomers want it and customers get it.

The end listeners don't know what they're missing because they rarely have an option.

Metallica "Death Magnetic" sounds better in Guitar Hero - Mastering Media Blog

This is a top-down problem driven by fear and ego on the part of the artists and producers - not consumer demand.

GR

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by Greg Reierson

The end listeners don't know what they're missing because they rarely have an option.

Metallica "Death Magnetic" sounds better in Guitar Hero - Mastering Media Blog

This is a top-down problem driven by fear and ego on the part of the artists and producers - not consumer demand.

GR

I'm a metal mixing and mastering engineer / I have definitely come across this Metallica feat a few times (Hey you never know free promotion :P). I never said it was wanted by the consumer, the customer to me is the recording artist, I get pushed a lot to make it louder and louder..

Especially in metal which is a very dense mix half the time, it is a big mistake. But still I do what they say, they pay the bills.

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by Chris Lago

The reason it isn't loud enough is because you didn't hire a pro mixing engineer then a pro mastering engineer. Do that, then get back to us, thanks.

And the reason you can't get it that loud is because you are not a pro.

Play nice MR. Lago.

[Greg Reierson]

Originally Posted by ShadowAMD

I never said it was wanted by the consumer, the customer to me is the recording artist, I get pushed a lot to make it louder and louder..

Ah, got it. Yes, plenty of pressure there. Resistance, as they say, is futile. Luckily some of them are starting to get it and make albums with the density they like but without the clipping hash. It's going to take time for this generation to work it out.

GR

[nomoreflakes]

Originally Posted by da goose

Or you let someone professional do your mastering?
A professional has a lot of ways to make things loud

Other than eq, dynamics and clipping? Do tell.

[Zownd]

Originally Posted by nomoreflakes

Other than eq, dynamics and clipping? Do tell.

Saturation (yes it's a form of contolling dynamics )

[jordanvoth]

If the music on your CD sounds good to your ears it clearly is possible to get it that loud sounding good. Of course it could be a problem with the mix, are there bottom end issues? A mix with too much bottom will never get as loud as one that has it just so. A lot of this has to do with mix balance but assuming you have that figured out, a lot of guys intentionally clip their mixes to shave off the tops and then hit the mix with a limiter. Something to consider.

[jordanvoth]

Originally Posted by Chris Lago

The reason it isn't loud enough is because you didn't hire a pro mixing engineer then a pro mastering engineer. Do that, then get back to us, thanks.

And the reason you can't get it that loud is because you are not a pro.

Nobody would ever be a pro if they didn't practice and try. Your work is very good Chris but at one point or another you probably had a lot of questions regarding the practices of engineering and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that but you benefit sweet nothing from an answer like this so why not help? The guy is doing music that you're very good at, why not help him? One of the things that make a forum like this so great is the opportunity afforded to young engineers to ask experienced people doing this everyday. More often than not these professionals are glad to answer questions and do so with a humbleness that is damn near COMMONPLACE amongst REAL professionals. It's a shame because I bet if you WANTED to, you could probably offer up some real advice.