Why is master not loud like music on the radio

[dynamaster]

Thanks for the explanation of the forum jordanvoth.
I preshate your support.
BIG THANKS!!!!!

[Bob Olhsson]

FWIW: it's pretty easy to make something really loud provided it was tracked and mixed with low distortion.

Distortion accumulates until it reaches a point where the audio quality falls apart.

[whitecapstudios]

Does anybody know what most radio stations use to broadcast their music? I was under the impression that they used muti-band compression like the Orban Optimod units and then also processed using brick wall broadband limiting.

[Kaoz]

An antenna of some sort?

[Naj 1]

Hope your question gets answered, because I have the same problem

[RightOnRome]

Quote:
Originally Posted by frans
roughly the same process as slamming a 20-foot car into a 18-foot garage until it fits

What a wonderful and precise description!

::
Mads

[Cornellius]

Download Voxengo Span for free or another plugin and analyse the RMS value, the closer to 0 this is the louder the music is 'perceived' in lame man terms, most the stuff on the radio is most likely to have an rms or -11 to -6 (i think)

edit: -6 is more around some of the brostep we hear with little dynamics, as for radio stations they do run everything through various compressers eqs, partially because some frequencies in music are hard to transmit long distances and also to achieve a similar to sound to most songs, the more commercial the radio station the higher the level of compression tends to be, for example KISS 100 in London appear to have a very squashed sound(and they also speed up tracks) radio 1 in comparison still radically processes the audio but not as much as KISS

[Michael Grafl]

Hey dynamaster,

Your question is legitimate. Don't listen to those boring people who keep raving on about "Loudness Wars" as if it were a real issue. Not only does it have nothing to do with your original question, but furthermore not anyone should get to decide how a record is supposed to sound except the people who created it. The exact same people who invented it. Who thought it up, with their minds. Who spent days, weeks, months in order to make it sound like they're hearing it in their own heads. Who put forth the courage to put their soul into something that will get ridiculed and hence break their hearts. For whom there is actually something at stake when all this frustrating, intimidating, humbling work leads to a record they're not happy with.

Those people have the right to **** up their own records as much as they want to. Because they know what sounds cool.

So, bear in mind that I am not a professional mastering engineer, but that I have been recording and sometimes mastering my own music for 13 years as of today.

Here we go:

Originally Posted by dynamaster

At last I maximize the track at 0db with L3 Maximizer and sounds nice and loud in the studio. ( I turn the volume up )

You're talking gibberish. On a limiter like the L3 you have roughly two parameters to adjust:

1. Treshold
2. Out Ceiling

When you turn the Treshold down, the loud parts of your song get quieter in relation to the quiet parts. This results in more room at the "top" of loudness. Your limiter compensates for that by making *everything* louder.

The Out Ceiling determines the maximum db value your recording will have. You can set this to -0.1 and be sure that there won't be any digital overs.

I guess you know this and meant to say that you set your Out Ceiling to 0db. But what really matters is how much you turn down the Threshold, because this is what actually increases the overall loudness.

Originally Posted by dynamaster

And when I play it on my HIFI is not so loud like a Populaar CD I buy in the stores and not loud like the radio station i swicth to.

Let's ignore radio broadcast for a moment. That's its own story.

Popular CDs are loud because they have been mastered by professional mastering engineers, who usually know how to make a record sound really loud in case their customers ask for it. And they don't just make it sound louder by turning down the Treshold of their limiters, but also by doing other things to the source material that makes it sound more exciting.

Originally Posted by dynamaster

BUT I MASTER AT 0 db.

Again, this doesn't mean anything. And it shows that you're lacking a fundamental understanding of how this stuff works. Don't be discouraged because you don't get the desired results right now. You need a bit more time to get the hang of it.

Originally Posted by dynamaster

Is this because my Mac Built in audio interface?(Gear don't have the power)
Is this because of my Pro-Fire 610 audio interface?(Gear don't have the power)

Maybe. But I doubt it. Is all music quiet when you stream it from your computer, or only your own mixes?

Originally Posted by dynamaster

Is this because of my chain?

I don't know what your chain looks like.

Here's what my mastering chain might look like if I mastered one of my own songs for fun, before handing the (mostly) unprocessed mix over to a professional:

1. Tape emulation
2. EQ
3. Transient Processor
4. Compression
5. Limiter

Take note that the way I set them up, every single one of those will alter the sound only slightly. But in conjunction they will make a big difference.

With this approach I usually get my material's level close to the level of professionally mastered songs.

Originally Posted by dynamaster

or Is this because of Engineer knowledge? ( Technics )

Yes. Yes it is.

This is why I recommend putting an EQ and a compressor in front of your limiter and play around a bit. Try applying a high pass at 40 hz. Try pulling some of the frequencies around 250/300 Hz. Push some between 1 and 5 kHz. Try to get a feeling for how this makes your music sound louder and clearer. Try and see if you can push your limiter harder after doing that before the sound goes to hell.

Try using just one compressor with aggressive settings. Then try to use 2 or 3 compressors with conservative settings. Observe the differences.

Last but not least, **** around with factory preset and go from there. They will teach you a ton about typical EQ curves and compression ratios, attack and release times.

Experiment. And read. Read as much about audio engineering you can possibly stomach.

And don't let anyone bring you down because you enjoy making your records loud. Eventually you'll realize what the tradeoffs are yourself.

[devastat]

Sorry guys, a total newbie here - Regarding loudness, I would like to know that how does the "loudness normalizer" in Wavelab differ from using a maximizer plugin, or FGX for example to make your mix louder?

Another quick question, I always master my tracks so that they peak on 0db. I might for example do peak normalization in Wavelab to 0db. Is this right thing to do, should my mastered tracks always peak on 0db?

[OKB]

Originally Posted by devastat

Sorry guys, a total newbie here - Regarding loudness, I would like to know that how does the "loudness normalizer" in Wavelab differ from using a maximizer plugin, or FGX for example to make your mix louder?

Another quick question, I always master my tracks so that they peak on 0db. I might for example do peak normalization in Wavelab to 0db. Is this right thing to do, should my mastered tracks always peak on 0db?

Normalization is different from limiting or compression. Normalization just raises the gain of the file as far as it can be raised [or up to whatever you specify as a ceiling]. Compression and / or limiting lowers the gain on peaks and / or higher amplitude components of the waveform, which lowers the peak level of the file, allowing you to raise the average level.

I guess you are doing your own "mastering", right? That's O.K., I think. You should make the ceiling -.3dBfs [minus point 3 dBfs] or so, tops, to allow for the possibility of "intersample peaks" and maybe some sort of lossy conversion [which I am not recommending, btw].

[devastat]

Thanks for your reply OKB, really helpful.

In wavelab there is a level normalizer and also a 'loudness normalizer', which will also make the quiet parts louder without raising the overall peak level, so I guess it is some kind of limiter as well.

[projektk]

Originally Posted by Chris Bauer

Mastering engineers use a number of techniques to get commercial mixes loud. One of these is to accentuate frequencies that the ear is particularly sensitive to. The other is to control the amount of low end (which uses a great deal of headroom). By cutting away some of the sub bass, you can normally push the track level up a little higher. But really your first goal should be to make the track sound as good as possible and only then focus on loudness.

Messing with some frequencies is a great way to increase the volume without compressing the hell out of it. My car radio is pretty low but with an EQ, I boost the highs a little and cut some of the bottom end and it feels twice as loud.

Sent from my LG-P925 using Gearslutz.com

[DavieB]

Originally Posted by Chris Lago

The reason it isn't loud enough is because you didn't hire a pro mixing engineer then a pro mastering engineer. Do that, then get back to us, thanks.

And the reason you can't get it that loud is because you are not a pro.

ooooo, hahaha!

[OKB]

Originally Posted by devastat

Thanks for your reply OKB, really helpful.

In wavelab there is a level normalizer and also a 'loudness normalizer', which will also make the quiet parts louder without raising the overall peak level, so I guess it is some kind of limiter as well.

No problem. Glad to help. Yes, the "loudness normalizer" sounds like some type of compressor / limiter. I think the manual for that software is pretty detailed, or perhaps another member who is familiar with it can elaborate.

[flatfinger]

OPTIMOD

Orban Products ~ Radio

[ZED Sounds]

One simple idea which might be so simple to a lot of people on this forum but unknown to the OP is cutting unwanted frequencies.

It was briefly touched on by someone else saying that if you cut the really low frequencies (40hz) with a hi pass filter you will get louder results, but I find that cutting low and lower mid frequencies out of individual tracks such as hi hats and snares and anything else which doesn't have its fundamental sounds in the lower frequency range really frees up headroom in the mix but it isn't discussed much at all.

I now implement this to get cleaner sounding mixes but it does help get louder mixes right?

[SlowCheetah]

2 Weeks Ago * #20
Peaks
Gear Head
*
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: US
Posts: 56

Just produce 2 masters. The dynamic one that doesn't care about loudness and a loud focused one. Give the dynamic one to the radios so they can process that with their equipment, and offer the two others separately.
*
I like this advice. It shows the amoral realistic attitude a production engineer needs without totally giving up on the artistic, idealistic nature of music.

[Ienjoyaudio]

The super loud stuff is achieved by overdriving and saturating analogue gear and then using the digital limiter just a pinch at the very end. Something like this

Manley Massive passive > Manley Slam > Mastering Console> A/D > Limiter.

Using the manley slam to compress and glue the track then overdriving the stereo bus of the mastering console together will produce the -10 to -8db RMS values (-18 meters) that are common on todays commercial releases. The track will already be fairly squashed when recorded digital. Adding just a touch Digital limiting then will finish it off.


The answer to your question is an analoge chain before the digital chain.

[StringBean]

Originally Posted by Ienjoyaudio

then overdriving the stereo bus of the mastering console together will produce the -10 to -8db RMS values (-18 meters) that are common on todays commercial releases.

I believe you when you say you can overdrive analogue gear to gain extra dB you couldn't get digitally, but isn't that basically just causing distortion? And the reason pro's push analogue is because that kind of distortion is pleasing vs. digital distortion which sounds horrid?

[Ienjoyaudio]

Originally Posted by StringBean

I believe you when you say you can overdrive analogue gear to gain extra dB you couldn't get digitally, but isn't that basically just causing distortion? And the reason pro's push analogue is because that kind of distortion is pleasing vs. digital distortion which sounds horrid?

Correct. On high end mastering gear and consoles the sound isn't even really perceived as distortion because the components are of such a high quality. Its more like fullness and depth rather than distortion. But it gives the music that extra push you cant get digital.

[Joelistics]

Originally Posted by dynamaster

hahahaha very Funny mljung.

Dynakiller is removing the dynamics and that is exacly what I don't want to lose in the Master.hahahahaha.

I will take your advise and spend more time to get more experience with waves comp and limiters

I know this is not what you are looking for but learn how to mix tracks properly first. This should teach you about dynamics, frequency balance, arrangement etc which is vital knowledge for mastering. Once you have all of this stuff well under your belt loudness will be easy...

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by Ienjoyaudio

The super loud stuff is achieved by overdriving and saturating analogue gear and then using the digital limiter just a pinch at the very end.

That's one way. Another is really really clean, distortionless recorded audio with 4 to 6 dB. of limiting at the end.

Again, distortion accumulates. At some point the audio quality breaks. Tracking can have a huge influence on loudness potential.

[MAzevedo]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

Tracking can have a huge influence on loudness potential.

Quoted for emphasis. The biggest limiting factor to how loud I can get something in mastering is usually the level of distortion in the mix. Making clean, well tracked and mixed music super-loud is very easy; making already-distorted and compressed mixes louder than they are is often impossible (or just sounds horrible).

[whitecapstudios]

for those who haven't already seen this... it is really "Something".

File:Cd loudness trend-something.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia