Macbook speakers seem to suck/compress the audio after a master. Something I'm doing?

[wreckthisplace]

Hello

I'm hoping to get a reply ASAP on this one.

While listening to a master I did on my laptop speakers, I noticed that during some more hard hitting parts, such as the chorus, the audio seems to almost suck down. It almost sounds like it's compressing it and making it pump slightly. I've noticed this a few times before as well. Is this something that the Macbook speakers are known to do or is it something I am doing in mastering. I am using Ozone 5's multiband compressor and slightly compressing each band where needed. Could this have something to do with too much compression on the low end?

Any insight asap on this would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

[Wave theory]

Is this a joke?

[djmukilteo]

Originally Posted by Wave theory

Is this a joke?

No, I'm sure the OP is serious.
Mac Mastering 102
Prerequisite: Mac Mastering 101:
Calibrating your Mac laptop integral monitors in the CR.

[wreckthisplace]

I honestly didn't expect such a rude response. I've always loved this community and have found many useful tips on this forum and am genuinely surprised by such an unhelpful response.

It was an honest question from somebody who is still learning the fine art of mastering.

Can anybody else chime in with something a little less insulting and a little more helpful?

Or djmukilteo, can you elaborate on your reply, if you can bring yourself to see past my inexperience?

Thanks.

[StringBean]

My laptop speakers don't suck the sound or anything. They play the mix fine it's just played through crappy speakers with no low end. Check the mix, you should be hearing the same thing on all systems

[djmukilteo]

Originally Posted by wreckthisplace

I honestly didn't expect such a rude response. I've always loved this community and have found many useful tips on this forum and am genuinely surprised by such an unhelpful response.

It was an honest question from somebody who is still learning the fine art of mastering.

Can anybody else chime in with something a little less insulting and a little more helpful?

Or djmukilteo, can you elaborate on your reply, if you can bring yourself to see past my inexperience?

Thanks.

sorry wreckthisspace...I'm usually not rude or sarcastic, I just couldn't help myself to reply to Wave theory.
your not really expecting to get any useable results with your MacBook speakers right?.....

[wreckthisplace]

No, I understand that. I just figured since it was doing that to my master, but nothing else, that it was something I had done during the mastering stage. Possibly too much limiting, compression, maybe too much low end and the macbook can't handle it? I fear it's something on my end of things and if I could get it to sound like other masters/songs do coming out of my Macbook speakers, then I'm doing something right. Quite a few people listen to music out of their Macbook speakers and I would prefer to pinpoint the problem before committing on the master.

And no worries, I was just slightly taken back. I learn something new every day and I find bouncing my issues off of more knowledgable people will help me better my skills in the end, regardless of how dumb the question may seem.

[Lagerfeldt]

Originally Posted by wreckthisplace

Hello

I'm hoping to get a reply ASAP on this one.

While listening to a master I did on my laptop speakers, I noticed that during some more hard hitting parts, such as the chorus, the audio seems to almost suck down. It almost sounds like it's compressing it and making it pump slightly. I've noticed this a few times before as well. Is this something that the Macbook speakers are known to do or is it something I am doing in mastering. I am using Ozone 5's multiband compressor and slightly compressing each band where needed. Could this have something to do with too much compression on the low end?

Any insight asap on this would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

It's a known issue, and there was a thread about it recently. Not a lot of people seem to notice this issue, but the built-in output/speakers in iMacs, MacBooks, etc. have this problem.

It's seems to be related to inter-sample peaks as far as I can tell. Try using the free SSL X-ISM meter and see if it goes away once you have no ISP's.

[wado1942]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

It's seems to be related to inter-sample peaks as far as I can tell.

More likely, it's because they're 1/2" speakers driven by a 1/2 watt amp (or something like that). They're really there to tell IF there's a sound more than how good that sound is.

[fccmt]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

It's a known issue, and there was a thread about it recently. Not a lot of people seem to notice this issue, but the built-in output/speakers in iMacs, MacBooks, etc. have this problem.

It's seems to be related to inter-sample peaks as far as I can tell. Try using the free SSL X-ISM meter and see if it goes away once you have no ISP's.

yes it's true...at least on the imacs

[Papanate]

Originally Posted by wreckthisplace

Hello
Any insight asap on this would be much appreciated.
Thanks!

First - are you mastering using other speakers than your MB?

Second...yes the Macbook Pro and iMac's react oddly. Get a inexpensive pair of computer speakers if you want a real world listen to your mastering practice runs.

[jonathan jetter]

FWIW, i read this as "he took a master that he had done elsewhere and listened to it on his macbook speakers."

not "he mastered this track on his macbook speakers"

[Arksun]

Originally Posted by jonathan jetter

FWIW, i read this as "he took a master that he had done elsewhere and listened to it on his macbook speakers."

not "he mastered this track on his macbook speakers"

lol right, some of the replies read like they thought he was actually mastering WITH the laptop speakers.

[beau_mckee]

Originally Posted by okaydokay

Wow, you figured that out all by yourself? You're awesome, dude!

How long did it take you to figure out that a laptop is not a recording studio? Was it the speakers that initially tipped you off, or the lack of a patchbay?

Anyhow, kids today are sooooo smart.


[but they do kind of rely on their computers a lot, huh?]

I don't think the OP said anything about mixing on laptop speakers. Stop picking on "the kids".
I have had this same problem before with mixes not translating right on MacBook. Proffesssional mixes don't really do it too often, and that was a stepping stone for me to find areas in my mix to work on which ultimately led To me buying an NS10 style speaker o focus on getting my mids right

[squirreltrench]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

It's seems to be related to inter-sample peaks as far as I can tell. Try using the free SSL X-ISM meter and see if it goes away once you have no ISP's.

Not that I can hold a candle to Lagerfeldt, and therefore I should never question his wisdom, but everything I understand about audio would suggest that intersample peaks become square waves in d/a conversion which equals distortion. Would the audio circuit in the MacBook really lower the overall entire volume in response to intersample peaks?

My relatively uneducated guess would be that it's in the low-end, and the volume appears to dip because lower frequencies which the MacBook can't dream of reproducing with any significance are nonetheless sucking up that tiny .5 watt power amp's juice. My first thought would be to kill anything below 20hz entirely, and check 0-300 Hz in a visualizer like Voxengo's (free) SPAN and see if there are some big peaks, or too much energy overall in this range compared to commercial/reference releases, and then tame whatever needs taming.

If it is indeed intersample peaks, then grab SSL's free X-ISM plugin as Lagerfeldt stated. I find that I have to set Logic's limiter to at least -0.4 db ('at least' meaning at that point or lower) in order to prevent analogue overs (the dreaded intersample peaks). I've even run into cases where I still get analogue overs with -0.4 depending on the source material, but -0.4 is low enough to prevent them all, for most tracks.

[beau_mckee]

Originally Posted by okaydokay

Let me see if I understand this now. Upon finding that your mixes did not translate right on a MacBook, you bought one (1) NS10 style speaker to learn how to mix better?

So you went from some little tiny speakers with no bottom end, to one slightly bigger speaker that is the only speaker ever in common use that also has a universal reputation for having no bottom end?

Yes thats exactly what I did! But I have studio monitors for majority of my mix and edit work. Do you not reference your mixes on different speaker types?
One can presume OP is possibly comparatively listening to his mixes against some more commercial style mixes, and not hearing the speakers react the same way. That is how I took his post, because I have had the same sucking sound compression issue occur many times. After referencing on the macbook speakers, I realized my tonal eq balance in my mids was letting me down. Since consciously identifying that flaw, my mixes improved a noticeable amount.

[StringBean]

Can any of you who have experienced this problem and fixed it provide some insight into what the flaws were in your mixes? I've never noticed this "sucking" sound on the macbook pro, testing my own and friends' mixes on multiple laptops. I used to think there was something really wrong with my laptop speakers...until I realized that they don't produce below 200-300Hz and my mixes weren't "interesting" enough in the high end.

[lurxtlifeson]

Originally Posted by Arksun

lol right, some of the replies read like they thought he was actually mastering WITH the laptop speakers.

I'm glad you pointed this out; I read the statement the same way . "While listening to a master I did on my laptop speakers" is unclear, and I don't blame anyone for misinterpreting his statement. This is an example of why we all should have paid attention in English class! Ambiguous prepositional phrase use (and in this case, lack of a preposition) is a serious issue! I don't mean to offend anyone or be a grammar **** but good communication skills are something we should all work to acquire; we deal with clients!

[wreckthisplace]

Hey all,

Thanks for the replies and the interesting conversation. Exactly what I was hoping would happen.

Sorry I wasn't so clear in my original post. I see now how that could have been confusing. Yes, I did indeed mean that I did a master in Pro Tools while listening back on my monitors (KRK V8), dithered, bounced down to 16 bit and all, and then listened on my laptop monitors as one of a few reference sources. I suspected it may be the low end, but it sounds fine on my monitors and looks comparable to other song eqs on a frequency analyzer, although I know it's not always wise to depend on those. I also suspected I was hitting the limiter too hard (I want to get it up to at least -11 RMS), but I'm not sure about that theory. I'm going to try the SSL X-ISM as well as shaving off some lower frequency a bit more. I have 30KHz completely shaved off already.

By all means, keep this discussion going and I'll report back if I manage to pinpoint the issue.

Thanks again for all of your chatter.

[beau_mckee]

Try focusing on your mids right and see if that gives you the results you're after

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Originally Posted by squirreltrench

My relatively uneducated guess would be that it's in the low-end, and the volume appears to dip because lower frequencies which the MacBook can't dream of reproducing with any significance are nonetheless sucking up that tiny .5 watt power amp's juice.

No. A steep highpass filter is already employed by default, so those frequencies don't even make it to the amp. Otherwise the speakers would blow in the first 5 minutes, even with that tiny amp, because they just don't have any excursion capability. Most laptop speakers start rolling off below 600Hz, and if i could have a wild guess, the HPF is set around 300-400Hz and it's likely 24dB/oct.

The speakers in most current Apple devices have a compressor/limiter built into the amp. No way around that. The way it behaves depends on the material - if it sounds good on everything else besides a Macbook, then i would not worry about it.

Originally Posted by beau_mckee

Try focusing on your mids right and see if that gives you the results you're after

This is good advice.

[fccmt]

Originally Posted by jonathan jetter

FWIW, i read this as "he took a master that he had done elsewhere and listened to it on his macbook speakers."

not "he mastered this track on his macbook speakers"

like Blur's song: "there's no other way..."

[wreckthisplace]

Can anyone elaborate on 'focusing on the mids'?

What advice can you give regarding that? Cutting mids, adding some DBs to a certain mid frequency with an EQ? If so, what's usually good? This track is an upbeat synthy, electro song and I'm A/Bing it with Katy Perry's 'Last Friday Night', although the song I'm mastering has a slower tempo. The kick has to really pop out so I do have a boost around the 50-150 range. 50 and below is pretty much rolled off completely.

My chain looks like this. Please correct or suggest anything that may be wrong or that could be better.

I start with a Waves Q10 EQ and a LPF to shave off some of the 16k and above range. I then use iZotope Ozone 5 for some additional EQing, slight multiband compression where needed, a touch of stereo imaging and a limiter to bring up the volume.

Is it ok to use an EQ and then another EQ afterwards? I found that the LPF in Ozone wasn't shaving off what I wanted to shave off of the 16k and above range so I started with the Waves Q10 to accomplish that.


Any other tips or suggestions would be great.

Again, thanks for the discussion. I'm loving this.

[Riccardo]

Originally Posted by beau_mckee

Try focusing on your mids right and see if that gives you the results you're after

I am quoting this as it already explains that you won't find indications regarding what frequencies as your mids will likely be different from somebody elses mids.
In other words you will need to find out what freuqncies will need to be attenuated or boosted (if any) given the program material you are working on.
Yes if needed you can use two equalisers.

[wado1942]

Originally Posted by wreckthisplace

Can anyone elaborate on 'focusing on the mids'?

The body & overall tonality of most instruments & vocals resides in the mid range. He just means to make sure nothing is out of control there, throwing everything out of whack.

What advice can you give regarding that? Cutting mids, adding some DBs to a certain mid frequency with an EQ? If so, what's usually good?

There's no "usual". You have to listen and do what your ears tell you.

I start with a Waves Q10 EQ and a LPF to shave off some of the 16k and above range. I then use iZotope Ozone 5 for some additional EQing, slight multiband compression where needed, a touch of stereo imaging and a limiter to bring up the volume.

I can't tell you what to do, because I can't hear the tune. I also don't know your taste. I will say that a 10-band EQ, a low-pass filter, more EQ on top of that & multiband compression = A LOT of manipulation to the spectrum. Do you really NEED all that processing? If so, there's something really wrong with the mix and the solution lies there. It's not necessarily wrong to use multiple EQs. I sometimes do that, but most of the time, it's maybe 2-3 bands. I just did a job that needed 6 bands, but it was a problematic mix and there isn't time for a remix. What's happening above 16KHz that it needs to be completely removed? Any way, 90% of the time, all I need is a 4-band parametric EQ, a wide-band compressor and a limiter. That other 10% of the time, the sky's the limit on what I might have to use.

[wreckthisplace]

Hmm...

So would a better chain be to start with an EQ and touch up any necessary frequencies there, a multiband compressor slightly where needed (if needed), a stereo imager (I usually like to use this slightly to slightly widen the frequencies in the mid-higher spectrum) and then a limiter to up the volume to around -11RMS. Is that chain really that drastic?

I want to cut the muddiness, bring out the thumping kick some more, slightly brighten the mix, hopefully add some slight mids to bring her vocals out some more, and then up it to a more industry standard volume. I'm toying with some different treatments and bounces and I seem to be slowly fixing the issue of my macbook speakers sucking in when the chorus hits but still not quite there yet.

[squirreltrench]

Originally Posted by wreckthisplace

The kick has to really pop out so I do have a boost around the 50-150 range. 50 and below is pretty much rolled off completely.

It's important to understand that when you play something on lo-fi speakers like a laptop, there is no 50-150 hz being reproduced. So when you boost the kick in that range, there is no effect in the mids. What is seemingly counter-intuitive is to get the kick to cut through, you need to make the 'click' part of it happen: the click, or beater, portion of the kick resides somewhere in the 1.5k-3.5k range. (The chest-thump portion usually resides in the 45-90 hz range.) The fact that an important component of the kick's sound is in the 1.5k to 3.k range is why you can hear the kick attack even on laptop speakers, which can't reproduce much below 500 or 600 hz as a previous poster stated.

Originally Posted by wreckthisplace

I want to cut the muddiness, bring out the thumping kick some more, slightly brighten the mix, hopefully add some slight mids to bring her vocals out some more, and then up it to a more industry standard volume. I'm toying with some different treatments and bounces and I seem to be slowly fixing the issue of my macbook speakers sucking in when the chorus hits but still not quite there yet.

All this stuff that you want to do.... should be done in the mixing process, not in the mastering process. You want to cut the muddiness.... find out what tracks are creating the muddiness, and then EQ *just* those tracks. You want to bring more mids to her vocals.... then apply more mids just to her vocals. If you boost the mids in the final mix, when you wanted to enhance the mids only in the vocals will boost things you didn't want boosted, and possibly even create the muddiness you were looking to eliminate. You want to bring out the kick, then apply parallel compression to *just* the kick.

One other note: The sensation of "sucking in" on the Macbook speakers may simply be how the track sounds in comparison to your regular monitors. This would likely be the case if you have a lot of low end, in which case the volumes "feel right" on your main monitors, but then because the volume is coming from the lows, with not enough presence in the mids, then it feels like it's "gone away" in the chorus over your MacBook speakers.

I, too, have a MacBook Pro, so if you want to send me the track privately, I'd be happy to listen to it on my MBP first, and then on my main monitors, and give you any input I can as to why you seem to be losing volume in the choruses.