Vinyl cutters: can you get a decent cut from a loud CD master?

[tonmeister]

I have a band who had their CD mastered by a top New York mastering engineer, but now a year later they want to release it on Vinyl.
Can you get an acceptable cut from a loud master like this?
I expect it's a bad idea due to over-limiting.

[huejahfink]

You can cut those files, but unlikely to be as good as cutting from a more open source.
I get the idea it's not uncommon (I don't cut myself), however I've heard some pretty decent sounding vinyls cut from pre-limited sources - a skilled cutting engineer can still make it work.

[Gengy]

with proper adjustments you can have a decent record!

[tonmeister]

After listening to it, it sounds quite squashed and aesthetically maybe not right for vinyl. A remaster might be on the books.

[huejahfink]

I'd definitely go from the flat mixes if you can! Good luck with it.

[wado1942]

No, you shouldn't master for vinyl from a CD master. They're two different media with two different sets of needs. The guy making the disk will have to master specifically for that medium regardless of what you send him so it might as well be the source mix right? I've heard plenty of vinyl cut from CD masters and it's not as good as the CD and not nearly as good as the vinyl could be.

[IIIrd]

No reason why you can't get a decent cut of it...it'll be a good cut of a loud cd master. Better to cut it from an un squashed source of course...cd masters are routinely used though.

[gingataff]

It's probably hard to do well.
FWIW I bought some Devin Townsend LPs a while back that were clearly cut from a CD and sound dreadful, they even fade out/in and the end and beginning of each side. Ugh.

[Fabmaster]

Originally Posted by wado1942

No, you shouldn't master for vinyl from a CD master. They're two different media with two different sets of needs. The guy making the disk will have to master specifically for that medium regardless of what you send him so it might as well be the source mix right? I've heard plenty of vinyl cut from CD masters and it's not as good as the CD and not nearly as good as the vinyl could be.

Cutting lacquers from the same source as the CD master has been
SOP for many years. Using two sources is a newer trend (fad?).
Optimizing audio is optimizing audio. Bad CD master bad vinyl and vice versa.
You often speak with authority and are off base as far as the facts.

[IIIrd]

Originally Posted by Fabmaster

Cutting lacquers from the same source as the CD master has been
SOP for many years. Using two sources is a newer trend (fad?).
Optimizing audio is optimizing audio. Bad CD master bad vinyl and vice versa.
You often speak with authority and are off base as far as the facts.

Well, using two sources as been the norm here for a long while. I speak for stuff I master myself and it's the way I was taught. Stuff supplied is another matter as you use what you're given. I have rejected stuff though and asked if a non limited version was available, we do have that course of action. As an engineer it's for me to advise my client accordingly.

[Fabmaster]

Haven't mastering engineers been using EQ, compression and limiting
since the beginning? Isn't that the point of mastering? Optimizing the source
for the medium? Who's to say the the processing for digital won't work optimally for vinyl release? If the engineer isn't stomping the life out of the source material, then the engineer isn't stomping the life out of the source material(.)

[wado1942]

Originally Posted by Fabmaster

Isn't that the point of mastering? Optimizing the source for the medium?

EXACTLY! How can the needs of vinyl possibly be exactly the same as that of CD or cassette for that matter? They're not even the same for AAC and CD, which are much closer in nature.

I speak with authority (as you say) on such subjects because I happen to know a bit about them. Vinyl requires processing that CD doesn't, such as gradually pulling back the level & compensating for HF response as the stylus approaches the center of the disk or narrowing the LF separation if it's too extreme. Vinyl needs a lot more compromises if you try to cram too much material on it.

In the early days of CD, it was routine to just take the vinyl master and copy it to PCM. This did not yield ideal results and consumers complained about it. At one point, one could take a good CD master and tweak it for vinyl, but that's mastering a master and not as good as going straight to the mix.

Nowadays with clipping and brick-wall limiting being routine, new problems have been created. You can't expect a stylus to instantaneously go from near-maximum velocity to a dead standstill, hold in place for a few milliseconds and jump back the other direction. If the CD master was distorted, the vinyl master will be a lot more distorted. Brick-wall limiting isn't as offensive, but there isn't an absolute ceiling with vinyl as in CD. Overall level is more important and excessive limiting won't get you much for level on vinyl, so you're just working against yourself. Sure, you can take a mildly limited master and master it for vinyl, but again, that's not as good as going straight to the mix. Besides, how many CD masters are MILDLY limited these days?

For the record (no pun intended) the best vinyl album I've heard to date had no limiting at all, but it was 15 minutes per side.

[Fabmaster]

^ What is "LPI" as it relates to disk cutting?

To the OP:

If you approved the EQ for the CD then you will like the vinyl as well.

[Cheebs Goat]

The entire point of loudenation on a CD is to make it as loud or louder than other digital files.

Records don't work that way. At all.

On a record you can do things like shortening the playing time to cut a louder groove. My MGMT album that was crammed onto a single record is quiet as balls compared to various albums I own that were split on to two records.

So you have these modern mastering techniques that are developed and based on a medium with a hard level ceiling. The techniques are only good for creeping up to that ceiling and harm the sound otherwise. Then you're going to take that master and stick it on to a format that doesn't even have a hard ceiling to creep up to.

In a purely "it can work" sort of way, yeah...it can work. But in a logical way it doesn't make a lick a' sense. And it certainly won't sound its best.

[wado1942]

Originally Posted by Fabmaster

To the OP:

If you approved the EQ for the CD then you will like the vinyl as well.

Not necessarily. The audio content as a whole needs to fall within the limitations of the disk. Too much high end = distortion, too much bass = stylus jumping the groove. That may require extra EQ the CD didn't have. On top of that, you naturally loose high end as the stylus reaches the center of the disk because the linear velocity is slower and the angle of the groove itself is tighter. You can't really just boost it back or distortion will increase. It takes a skilled hand to hide these facts, and they can be hidden somewhat, but the sound WILL be different.

[Adam Dempsey]

I'm doing another such a job this week... you may hear their previous single on the re-worked '90210' series. They didn't have the budget to remaster from scratch for vinyl (pardon the pun) so I'll be re-EQ'ing the 24 bit masters a touch and adding a B-side previously released on 7 inch. None were slammed anyway. But yes side length can more commonly play a role, as well as minimizing side length differences and/or (less common) putting ballads or tracks with less HF energy towards the end of each side.

Not unrelated: Neil Young: Steve Jobs listened to vinyl
"Steve Jobs was a pioneer of digital music. His legacy is tremendous," Young said on Tuesday in the US. "But when he went home, he listened to vinyl [albums]."