m/s EQing WITHOUT stereo image expansion?

[uglijimus]

Just as the subject says. I'm currently EQing a final mix and have been messing with M/S and have been getting some favorable results. Except, when I do so, it greatly expands the stereo image which is not what I'm looking for. Any way to combat this?

[Rob Murray]

If you're EQ'ing especially additive EQ on the Side portion (or negative on Mid) this is what will happen. Why EQ in MS if not trying to change the stereo field?

(barring those who EQ in MS as a way of getting better L-R matching which I don't believe is what we're talking about here.)

[acorneau]

Like Rob said, if you're boosting with the side EQ then you'll get an overall boost in the sides (a.k.a. stereo width).

If you want to maintain the stereo image then try less M/S EQ'ing and/or reduce the volume of the side signal to compensate.

[uglijimus]

The guitar sound of this song in the side is thick and warm sounding, unlike the middle. I was isolating and accenting that and that's all I wanted without making it wider sounding. I was using M/S as a way to have better instrument isolation instead of remixing (which is not an option).

I should add that I thought I read somewhere that someone had a program that could do exactly what I was looking for, but it was something ridiculous for $999. Maybe I misunderstood.

[Rob Murray]

"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch"

bring up the lo-mids in the sides, it will create this big wide bloom at those freqs. bring it up in the mid-channel and you'll (sort of) shrink the image as well as affect the bass and vocal (assuming they exist) Remember that you're creating bigger guitars out of phase, this can lead to other problems down then line, and certainly will be thin if it ever ends up in mono.

[2pulse]

If you're boosting the low-mids of the "center" component, that will actually result in a narrowing of the image--that particular frequency range of the panned material (guitars, etc) will be pulled towards the middle. The perceived wideness you're hearing might just be the increased spatial contrast between low and high frequencies.

The insidious (or awesome, depending on what effect you're after) thing about mid-side EQ is that point-panned instruments will become tilted (or drift) across the stereo image with respect to their frequency content; i.e. different notes and harmonics of a single instrument will occupy different parts of the stereo spread.

An extreme example: If you pan a police siren to the left, but you high-pass the "side" component (or do a big low shelf boost to the center) at the middle frequency of the tone sweep, the sound will bounce between left and center with each cycle.

Ultimately, you'll need to simply deal with the spatial anomalies created by M/S EQ if the resulting frequency correction is valuable enough to you.

[uglijimus]

Up until now, I've done very little with the mid, only the side. In fact before, I just cut out some of the low end of the mid and boosted a lot in the side. I think this was what was creating the spacious effect.

So after reading your guys' posts, I spent more time on the mid and less on the side and sure enough, got a much narrower spatial image! thanks!

[grandmasters]

Originally Posted by uglijimus

Up until now, I've done very little with the mid, only the side. In fact before, I just cut out some of the low end of the mid and boosted a lot in the side. I think this was what was creating the spacious effect.

So after reading your guys' posts, I spent more time on the mid and less on the side and sure enough, got a much narrower spatial image! thanks!

I don't get why if you don't want to mess with the stereo image why EQ in M/S?

[uglijimus]

Originally Posted by grandmasters

I don't get why if you don't want to mess with the stereo image why EQ in M/S?

like i said in my previous post, I'm just using the m/s route as a way to access and isolate instruments that other wise can't do. If I had all available tracks prior to mixing, I would never have to come onto this board