In-Ear Monitors vs Reference Headphones?

[Alkamist]

Hey guys, sorry for bringing this up on the mastering forum, but I figured you would know the most about it.

I do electronic music that requires precise engineering of lower frequencies. Right now I have a studio with some cheap Behringer speaker's and a KRK 10s sub. My room however, is probably the worst possible room for mixing.

Instead of forking over a bunch of money to treat my room, I decided to go the headphone route (it's cheaper and it makes my entire studio mobile because I use a laptop).

I've already bought a pair of Sennheiser hd650's (which I can still easily return). The hd650's sound absolutely brilliant, however, I don't know if my head is shaped weirdly or something but I can't bear to wear them for more than 20 minutes at a time, and I find myself with terrible headaches all day.

Can you guys suggest something for me? I have some choices I've been looking at:

Reference Headphones:
-AKG K702 (only ~$250 on amazon right now)
-Skullcandy MixMaster

In-Ear Monitors:
-Etymotic hf5
-Sony XBA-4 (not out yet but they look pretty sweet)
-Sennheiser IE80
-Westone 4

I'm looking for:
-Best mixing results
-Most comfortable
-under $500

I'm not doing any final mixes on these and I'm not mixing solely on them. I'm using them for tracking/arranging and making really good initial mixes. It is important to me to have accurate and uncolored sound with precise bass response.

I tend to lean towards In-Ear because of the sound isolation and portability, however, if the AKG's are the best option and you think they will be more comfortable than the HD650's then I'll give them a try.

I'm also running everything through an RME Babyface

[kosmokrator]

When wearing in-ears for really long time and very often, definately get molds.

Better for your ears and IMO more comfortable is bigger headphones.

I have the AKG 701 (same as 702 acustically), which is very very good (the not-in-your-headness is astonishing), but IMO they are not very good for electronic music because they are bass-shy.

I have the same problem with Sennheisers, for me the Beyerdynamic HPs are very comfortable. The flattest of those is the 880, the closed 770 and open 990 are also nice. You should check out those three.

That being said, I'm getting the Ultimate Ears Reference in-ears for testing and report back...

[Alkamist]

Originally Posted by kosmokrator

When wearing in-ears for really long time and very often, definately get molds.

Better for your ears and IMO more comfortable is bigger headphones.

I have the AKG 701 (same as 702 acustically), which is very very good (the not-in-your-headness is astonishing), but IMO they are not very good for electronic music because they are bass-shy.

I have the same problem with Sennheisers, for me the Beyerdynamic HPs are very comfortable. The flattest of those is the 880, the closed 770 and open 990 are also nice. You should check out those three.

That being said, I'm getting the Ultimate Ears Reference in-ears for testing and report back...

Thanks for the insight! I wish I could get molds, but unfortunately it seems that any sort of mold makes the in-ear monitor jump up to about $1000, which I can't spend right now. I'll probably go with the Westone 4's because they seem like the best option right now, but I wonder if the upcoming Sony XBA-4's would be any better.

And that's awesome you're getting some Ultimate Ears, I'd love to get my hands on a pair of those. I'd really appreciate to hear how those work out for you

[strdsk]

I hate wearing phones and plan on going Etymotic soon, Have their in ear protective plugs and love them!

[claend]

I understand your situation but maybe consider the headackes could be easily caused by wearing the HPH for a long period of time. An in-ear system could be worst at that department IMO.

Cheers.

[Alkamist]

Originally Posted by claend

I understand your situation but maybe consider the headackes could be easily caused by wearing the HPH for a long period of time. An in-ear system could be worst at that department IMO.

Cheers.

Yeah I'm probably going to give them a break for a day at least to recover, and then try them out again when I'm fresh. Hopefully this will solve my problems. I'll just have to pace myself with them if I keep them.

[sat159p1]

AKG K240DF for bigger (flat as hell)
Sony MDRA44 for in-ear (detailed as hell, but not hyped sound)

[Danz03]

I have Westone 4, they are quite flat sounding but I prefer the UM3x as my reference. I tried out the Sony XBA-4 a couple of weeks ago, I thought they sounded quite bad, for the asking price, the XBA-3 sounded much better IMO and quite reasonably priced too. As for customs, I have a pair of UE18Pro, very comfortable but they sounded anything but flat. The problem with customs is that you don't really know what they'll sound like until they are made, and there's nothing you can do about it if you don't like them.

Originally Posted by Alkamist

Thanks for the insight! I wish I could get molds, but unfortunately it seems that any sort of mold makes the in-ear monitor jump up to about $1000, which I can't spend right now. I'll probably go with the Westone 4's because they seem like the best option right now, but I wonder if the upcoming Sony XBA-4's would be any better.

And that's awesome you're getting some Ultimate Ears, I'd love to get my hands on a pair of those. I'd really appreciate to hear how those work out for you

[jeff_free69]

For in ear I'd consider Audeo Perfect Bass or Perfect Fit

Amazon.com: Audéo Perfect Fit Earphones 112 (Black): Electronics

Customizeable for fit and also bass response

[Alkamist]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Originally Posted by Danz03

I have Westone 4, they are quite flat sounding but I prefer the UM3x as my reference. I tried out the Sony XBA-4 a couple of weeks ago, I thought they sounded quite bad, for the asking price, the XBA-3 sounded much better IMO and quite reasonably priced too. As for customs, I have a pair of UE18Pro, very comfortable but they sounded anything but flat. The problem with customs is that you don't really know what they'll sound like until they are made, and there's nothing you can do about it if you don't like them.

How come you prefer the UM3x? Also, have you tried out the Sennheiser IE 80's?

[Danz03]

Oh, it's a silly reason, it's just because I'm more used to the UM3x sound signature, I had them for over a year longer and I use them everywhere, when I'm commuting, working out at the gym etc, and the sound isolation is slightly better. The Westone 4's sound signature is similar but has more details and definition, so whatever sounds good with the UM3x will sound better with the Westone 4.

I tried out the IE80 a couple of weeks ago, they are very good, more flat sounding than IE8, but since I have IE8 and Westone 4, I don't really need the IE80. They are not as good in terms of sound isolation comparing to the Westone 4 or the UM3x, the only advantage would be if you need more bass, you can dial up for more.

Originally Posted by Alkamist

How come you prefer the UM3x? Also, have you tried out the Sennheiser IE 80's?

[Alkamist]

Originally Posted by Danz03

Oh, it's a silly reason, it's just because I'm more used to the UM3x sound signature, I had them for over a year longer and I use them everywhere, when I'm commuting, working out at the gym etc, and the sound isolation is slightly better. The Westone 4's sound signature is similar but has more details and definition, so whatever sounds good with the UM3x will sound better with the Westone 4.

I tried out the IE80 a couple of weeks ago, they are very good, more flat sounding than IE8, but since I have IE8 and Westone 4, I don't really need the IE80. They are not as good in terms of sound isolation comparing to the Westone 4 or the UM3x, the only advantage would be if you need more bass, you can dial up for more.

Haha I see, well hopefully I can get my hands on a pair of Westone 4's soon. If I ever do I'll post an update. Thanks for the advice btw

[Danz03]

You are welcome. Just a piece of advice, the Westone 4 is available with removable cables now as Westone 4R, I would recommend getting that. Even though the Westone cables are quite tough in general, it would be a pain if they broke after the warranty ran out, which was what happened to my UM2. I would have gotten the 4R myself if it was available last year.

Originally Posted by Alkamist

Haha I see, well hopefully I can get my hands on a pair of Westone 4's soon. If I ever do I'll post an update. Thanks for the advice btw

[Alkamist]

Originally Posted by Danz03

You are welcome. Just a piece of advice, the Westone 4 is available with removable cables now as Westone 4R, I would recommend getting that. Even though the Westone cables are quite tough in general, it would be a pain if they broke after the warranty ran out, which was what happened to my UM2. I would have gotten the 4R myself if it was available last year.

Yeah I'll probably be getting the 4r's because I can't seem to find any regular 4's from an authorized dealer. And I think the 4r's drivers are better matched too from what I've heard.

[edwinhurwitz]

If you are going to check out in ears, I'd recommend looking at Future Sonics. Unlike most other in ears, they don't use the balanced armature technology, which is basically like a highly refined hearing aid. They use an actual speaker driver. I've been through Westone, Ultimate Ears, Etymotic Research and none of them have worked out really well. The Future Sonic Atrios have a much more realistic low end than all of the above. You can get them with the SofterWear ear molds that vastly improve the low end (and comfort) for $275 from their site. I recently lost my Westone Musician's earplugs and discovered that FS have a deal with their MG6Pros with a set of the same ear plugs for $850 and went for it. The frequency response is a bit lumpier than the Atrios, but it's one of the more profound bass experience's I've had on any playback device. It's not just level (which is adjustable via different sized vents) but also really deep. The bass response is pretty flat, whereas I've discovered that balanced armature low end tends to be somewhat lumpier and not extend nearly as deeply. You can clearly distinguish between notes way down below 80Hz.

I also found that the MG6Pros have enabled me to hear deeper into mixes than a lot of other transducers, speakers, headphones and IEMS, so that I could clearly hear delays and reverbs that are placed way in the background, etc. However, I don't know that I would trust them yet to make actual mixes. I need to do more listening. I mostly use them for on stage as a bass player and for that, they are simply phenomenal. I use an Alembic Superfilter which allows you to sweep a filter from 45hz on up and it's really easy to hear where the filter is way down at the bottom and how it affects the sound. I think the Atrio's with the SofterWears might be a better bet for mixing, but once I get more hours logged with the MG6pros, I might feel otherwise. I've only had them for a couple of weeks. From what I can tell, there's a bit of a bump in the mids (600-900Hz) and the highs are merely smooth (compared to the brilliance of the balanced armature based designs). It is pretty to listen to them. On Monday night, when I had to get up early for class the next day, I found myself up at 1:15AM after getting sucked into listening to reggae for a couple of hours. Not good for school, but it's been a while since I've been so compelled to just sit and enjoy music.

Future Sonics

Headphones I can compare to:
AKG 702s (favorites for critical listening, way less bass than the MG6Pros), ATH-M50s (were the favorites for location prior to the MG6Pros because of decent isolation and good sound, but hard to mix on because they make everything sound great), Beyer DT770s (old favorite for location because of excellent isolation, but very lumpy bass, so not so great for mixing), and Grado SR125.

YMMV, LOL, OMG, NNITO, etc.

[Russell Dawkins]

I sprang for ear molds for my Etymotic ER4Ss 10+ years ago. They were uncomfortable, a pain to get in and out of my ears (which is something that needs to be done quickly sometimes, to hear what someone is trying to tell you) and, worst, the bass didn't sound as good as the supplied silicon or foam plugs! Total waste of money.
When I brought this up with the Etymotic tech he said "yeah we feel that way too - don't know why it is such a popular thing to do"!

AKG K240df - great if you can find them and if they fit your head.

Don't understand the appeal of Sennheiser 650s. Last pair I listened to sounded like they had a blanket over them.

[ZED Sounds]

My two cents:

I also work a lot with electronic music (mixing and mastering) and have found a lot of headphones are hard to find with the right characteristics for mixing and processing.

I was recommended the Sony MDR-7506 which are a cheap studio monitor headphone but they have been amazing to me for the last 6 months. They are comfortable over long periods, accurate and have a great bass response.

Probably not the same accuracy as the Sennheisers but for $160.00 (aud) still a great buy.

[trying2mix]

I would also look into Ultrasone's stuff...

[monitor]

I use Beyer 990,
Stax Rs 202 (SR-2050II basic system) ,
Sony 7506, and a well insulated version of this Sony,
the Remote Audio HN 7506.

the 990 is not so flat, it gives a bit too much bass, and a quite a lot of high freq content.
Stax gives the most detail, but less bass response, and less high freq then the 990 or the Sony's.

I combine these multiple headphones and check on speakers after that.

[bari_floydian]

the ultimate ears rm (reference monitor) is the flattest iem in the market at the mo
pricy though and you will need ear impressions
takes a lot of time to get used to mixing with iems though and you will always have to check the stereo image on speakers but since the rm got out i use it more and more late at night or on the road to mix rather than using my hd 650s
some dealers have demo sets with generic foams on for people to try. id suggest trying to find a dealer near you that has these to try
good luck

[dreptak]

Nah, you can go waaay cheaper on custom IEMs:
Kozee Sound Solutions - Custom Earbuds & Custom Head Phones

Here's review of some more expensive ones:
** Multi-Custom IEM Review, Resource, Mfg List & Discussion Thread (16 reviews)
<thumbs up for Polish ones! >

[Erian]

audio technica ath-m50. Pretty solid and good sound...

[edwinhurwitz]

Originally Posted by Erian

audio technica ath-m50. Pretty solid and good sound...

I like these cans a lot, but they tend to make things sound better than they are. I use them on location and when handing them over to my clients for playback or monitoring, they love the sound. Then they get the exact same file at home and wonder why it doesn't sound as good. So, I will monitor live recordings with them and use them for pleasure, but I don't mix with them and I would never master with them.

[YTCrazyTieGuy]

Can anybody give their opinion on cheaper (up to $200) headphones for mixing & mastering?

I was thinking of the AT M50, Shure SRH840, Sennheiser HD-25-1-II, AKG K 240 MK-II, Vsonic GR07, and Hifiman RE 262. It's just really hard to make up my mind.

(BTW I tend to boost the bass too much, so a relatively bass-y headphone would be nice. Same goes for around 1k, but to a lesser degree)

Thanks

[RoadToNever]

Headphone mixing might be frowned upon but it's potentially the most accurate way to monitor your mixes save for the nicest monitors in treated rooms($$$$). Especially if you consider the excellent Etymotic ER4. All you need is a good crossfeed to get a reasonable representation of the sound field. The best I found is this one: foo_dsp_xfeed - Hydrogenaudio Forums I capture a stereo impulse with my favorite settings and load it onto the main output of my Cubase projects via ConvolverVST.

Originally Posted by YTCrazyTieGuy

Can anybody give their opinion on cheaper (up to $200) headphones for mixing & mastering?

I was thinking of the AT M50, Shure SRH840, Sennheiser HD-25-1-II, AKG K 240 MK-II, Vsonic GR07, and Hifiman RE 262. It's just really hard to make up my mind.

(BTW I tend to boost the bass too much, so a relatively bass-y headphone would be nice. Same goes for around 1k, but to a lesser degree)

Thanks

You'll get a higher degree of certainty on bass levels by getting accustomed to a "flatter" headphone. I own the Beyerdynamic DT250-250 since a few months back and transferability has been favorable so far. The particular Beyerdynamics are comparable to Sony V6/7605 but with less high-mids/low-trebles and no lower-mid suck out. One thing that's important to consider is using a dedicated headphone amp rather than any headphone output that's included in you gear. Those tend to have high output impedance resulting in loss of bass(potential cause for over-emphasiszing the bass in your mixes) and high THD/IMD(potential cause for dull mixes). Even the tiny Fiio E5 is a huge improvement.

[YTCrazyTieGuy]

Do you happen to read NwAvGuy? just wondering.
Thanks for the advice.
I actually use mac, so using that plugin is going to be a problem, but I'll definitely find another plugin.
About the amp, I actually own an E5 already.

I think I'm going to buy the Ety MC5 for now and maybe EQ them to match the Shure SE535 using the headroom graphs. Any thoughts? Will a full size be better?

Thanks!

[RoadToNever]

I've read NwAvGuy's blog, he certainly knows his stuff. Can't you dual boot to Windows on your Mac? How about Wine? I could make you a impulse if you don't manage to work it out, just send me a PM. Nothing comes close to perfection like Etymotic ER4 not even Etymotics cheaper models. They really agree with what comes out of my Alesis M1Active monitors. I owned the HF5 before and tried EQing them to match the ER4 with mixed results. I'm much happier with the ER4, well worth saving up for.

[YTCrazyTieGuy]

Really? you don't find the ER4 too bright? ER4 vs. Shure SE535. It's interesting if you don't, but I guess since I haven't heard them I can't argue. Right now they're out of my price range anyway. Any comments on MC5/HF5 vs. sub $150 full size headphones (the ones that I mentioned)? It would be greatly appreciated.

And thanks for the impulse offer! but for now I think I'll just try TB Isone and maybe Canz3D. But I'll definitely PM you if I want to try something different.