Speaker (tweeter) Height. PMC, B&W, ATC

[Zownd]

As I am looking into a new set of Monitors, I've been reading quite a lot from you guys here.

Now from what I gather:

B&W's tweeters are usually placed below the ear and on occasion at ear height
ATC's tweeters a little above ears height
PMC's tweeters are quite high above ear hight.

I've seen one chap over here who flipped his PMC's upside down.
Clearly he wanted to be closer to the tweeter.

At the moment I am using AML1's and I have the tweeters at ear height, maybe slightly under.

I noticed Bob Katz has them very high and he's looking down (most of us are)

If you buy a PMC with extra sub (MB2XBD),.. the tweeter will be at a whopping 1.50 meters.
This is the minimum.

So what's rule and/or the science in selecting a speakers height.

Before, someone has taught me about finding the "focus point" by moving your head up and down. If the speaker sounds best when tilted up the speaker should go down and if tilted down the speaker should go up. This still makes sense in a way,.. but I feel it's mainly about the tweeters.

Or is it truly speaker depend. PMC too bright -> move up?

thanks for reading guys,
Cheers,
Mark

[manman]

Tweeter height depends on room, speaker placement, personal preference, music genre, nearfield, and other purpose.

Normally you place slightly above ear any speaker to focus in the middle point because that's how speaker was engineered and designed.

If you like how AML1 sounds slightly below its fine as long you have good acoustics.

Also the reason why you like AML1 under ear level is because you can imagine 3D panorama better sort of looking from up. If you just face speakers front you ll probably can't judge much the depth.

my observations probably similar to yours:

B&W 802 <= ear
ATC >=ear
PMC tb2>=ear
PMC AML1 = ear (choose what best suits your music and 3D perspective)

Note: dont flip speakers upside down because naturally woofer needs to be lower than tweeter, unless your using symmetrical speaker

[da goose]

Good question! I think it's a combination of room size, distance, speaker, taste.
I have my b&w 802's lifted to just above ear height with a sandfilled console (about 50kg each) so that midrange is more like on earheigth.
Right now i have turned them a bit of axis so that the tweeter is not directly in line with my ears, sounded better to me.
Still searching a bit on what to do.. i noticed steffen has also raised his 802's a bit, though less then i did.

[dcollins]

There's definitely no "rule" to this, and it generally requires some experimentation.


DC

[Technologyworks]

PMC have some very clear guidance on height of tweeter and the angle down to the sweet spot for their particular monitors. I can't find the document at the moment but I think Greg R posted it not long ago in a similar question.

[bendermastering]

You should check out the Pensado's Place episode with Bob Hodas on Youtube. It has a lot to do with the speaker itself, but obviously the room and positioning will have an impact on it.

[Red Mastering]

that chap with flipped PMC would be me,
I simply spent a lot of time setting up monitors,
on some point I support myself with tools, (room eq wizard)
and it helped a lot,
fully recommended as even 3 cm movement of monitors can cancel 2-3dB peak/dip -
so it's very important to set it up correctly -
firstly - your ears and bunch of cds you now very well,
and then REW,
good luck

[Razik]

Checkout this episode:






Razik Mastering

[Zownd]

Originally Posted by Red Mastering

that chap with flipped PMC would be me,
I simply spent a lot of time setting up monitors,
on some point I support myself with tools, (room eq wizard)
and it helped a lot,
fully recommended as even 3 cm movement of monitors can cancel 2-3dB peak/dip -
so it's very important to set it up correctly -
firstly - your ears and bunch of cds you now very well,
and then REW,
good luck

Hey Chap
Thanks
My first thought was that if the woofer is on top, the speaker might move more resulting in less tightness?
from the looks of it the tweeters are still higher than your ears right?

Cheers,
Mark

[Zownd]

Originally Posted by Razik

Checkout this episode:

Thanks guys, this is indeed an interesting episode.
For anyone going to watch, skip the first 7 or 8 minutes

Now my next problem is my stands... made of concrete.
I can not move them
So I will have to take them down and find a way to move the new speakers around, up and/or down. and then make new concrete stands.

So my first idea is obviously to place them on the stands.
Then maybe get a big wooden board which covers both stands so I can move them around before taking down the stands.

any extra info is highly appreciated.

Cheers,
Mark

[Petrus]

Somebody had a drawing here from PMC, bigger monitors (IB2S and up I guess as they have identical mid-high drivers) "shoot down" at 10 degree angle as measured from the midrange driver.

[bkuijt]

imho it also has to do with the speaker itself, interaction of the drivers and radiation patterns, combined
with acoustics and your preference: where do you like the source to come from.

As has been said PMC's are meant to be higher then you when you sit.
One thing I like about that is that when you concentrate and look down the sound image is in the same
plane as your mind image is as well: about 20 or so degrees up if you look straight but I often look down.
That is also the angle where your ears are most sensitive to presence from the cochlear resonance of your ear.
Plus it encourages an active listening position and still works when you sit on a stool or stand up.

You can listen for the tilt optimum angle.
Find the 'focus' point by letting someone else tilt the speaker when you have your eyes closed (you shouldn't know
what he's doing) and point with your hands to the point where the source is coming from. This helps you
determine how you like the vertical angle of the speaker.
Combine this with your preference of image height.

When I worked on 803's they were aprox 20cm up from the ground (still below the ear) and tilted slightly back
(roll of scotch tape under the baffle) to get the focal point between mid driver and top woofer.

my 2 cents ;-)

[Red Mastering]

Originally Posted by Zownd

Hey Chap
Thanks
My first thought was that if the woofer is on top, the speaker might move more resulting in less tightness?
from the looks of it the tweeters are still higher than your ears right?

Cheers,
Mark

My ears are bit higher then tweeters, around 3 cm higher,
so my ears are more in the middle, but closer to tweeters,
it was great combination, but I upgraded amp to hypex ucd400hg last weekend,
and now I think I need to re-evaluate my set up a bit as I feel now i got sound a bit on the bright side, with low freq backed,
I need to go through all my CDs, it will take 2 weeks or so to just check those which are great sounding....
when I am done I will make decision and start testing monitors setup
my room sound different and I need to learn it again, to get confident when working

[Greg Reierson]

Originally Posted by Technologyworks

PMC have some very clear guidance on height of tweeter and the angle down to the sweet spot

The tweeter and mid on the MB and BB are time aligned and aimed 10 degrees down from the mid driver. I don't know about the other models. It's easy to hear when you're in the right spot by playing pink noise and moving your head up and down out in front of the speaker. It's probably a practical issue based on the layout of the cabinet. I suppose an active system could be aimed wherever you like.

Some people dislike the elevated sound stage but it just takes a little time to adapt to it. Now it seems normal to me. Judging by the number of PMC systems used in film mixing, it also translates well to the theater experience.

GR

[Riccardo]

It very depends on the room size and design as well as the speaker design.
I have had them at different heights in different rooms over the years.
Right now in the current room the mid dome is at ear level, the tweeter about 10/15 cm higher.

[Greg Reierson]

Here's are those PMC docs:

[Zownd]

Originally Posted by Greg Reierson

Here's are those PMC docs:

Thanks mate !