23rd January 2012
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#1 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 299
Thread Starter | Why both compression and limiting?
How come it it typical to use both compression and heavy compression(limiting) on master tracks? What does this accomplish? thanks!
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23rd January 2012
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#2 | | Locked away
Joined: Jan 2008 Location: In the shed
Posts: 1,007
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Basically you'll wnat to set the compressor to either even out a mix, glue it together or enhance its emotional "content" through the manipulation of dynamics.
The limiter is most of the time the last thing in the chain and used to prevent any short peaks from going over (historically, nowadays it's used to push loudness beyond sane levels.)
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23rd January 2012
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#3 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jan 2009 Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 2,621
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Limiting is used primarily to reduce peaks of the program material either to protect against clipping or to raise the overall level without greatly affecting the bulk of the dynamic range. Compression is used more to sculpt the overall sound to add a little punch or to smooth out certain aspects of the dynamic range. By the book, though, limiting is just compression with a very high ratio (like 10:1 or greater). I frequently limit without compression and vice-verse.
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23rd January 2012
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#4 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Jul 2006 Location: Austin, TX |
Compression and Limiting are very different.
We're not talking about the classical definition of limiting being a compressor with a ratio of greater than 8:1 but about brickwall look ahead limiters. These limiters "look-ahead" at what's going to come, and react in advance ensuring that nothing goes above the threshhold. Thus the name brickwall, as it's literally a ceiling that can't be passed. Because of this it allows one to remove peak transients (and more) from a digital recording, pushing the overall level higher without clipping.
When we talk about compression in mastering, we're talking about regular old run of the mill compressors as you're used to. These can be helpful in setting a tone, and gluing a piece together, but in general the level gained in mastering mostly comes from the limiting. Again, generally, of course compression, saturation, EQ, etc. count as well, but the largest part is coming from the brickwall limiter.
It's hard to say there's a rule of thumb, but normally compression in mastering is only a dB maybe 2, usually pretty slow attacks, compared to mixing, anything more is usually considered pretty extreme, and this usually leaves most original transients roughly intact, whereas limiting very clearly lowers/limits transients and may gain you 6dB in some cases or even more.
To add to the confusion, there's of course other possibilities, many people use analog limiters as well, which although aren't brickwalls, may help get a dB or two extra, in a different way than a brickwall, and there's of course multi-band compression/de-essing/acceleration limiters which all can be handy in certain situations.
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23rd January 2012
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#5 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jun 2006 Location: L.A.
Posts: 1,323
Verified Member |
I don't think Compression is "typical" in mastering. Limiting, almost always and even with that, sometimes it's just there to catch peaks with little GR unless the goal is to decrease dynamic range for the sake of loudness. I've done a few projects where we focus primarily on tonal balance for translation and use a limiter only to catch any overs (especially when the medium is vinyl).
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23rd January 2012
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#6 | | Gear addict
Joined: Oct 2010 Location: Gothenburg
Posts: 400
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A compressor with slower attack time, actually brings out some transients and will overload the mix buss, so then a limiter comes in handy.
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24th January 2012
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#7 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Nov 2005 Location: Brisbane
Posts: 295
Verified Member | Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Murray but the largest part is coming from the brickwall limiter. | I must be doing it wrong. I'm normally not pushing the limiter at all. Just setting a ceiling.
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24th January 2012
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#8 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Nov 2005 Location: Brisbane
Posts: 295
Verified Member |
Ie. there are more than three ways to skin a llama.
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24th January 2012
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#9 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jul 2008 Location: NYC
Posts: 888
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compression is either for vibe/motion, or for gentle leveling from section to section.
limiting is purely for overall level increase, or once in a while if you have too much transient content for your own good.
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24th January 2012
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#10 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Aug 2010 Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 1,508
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Originally Posted by DominicWyeth Ie. there are more than three ways to skin a llama. | Sometimes more than six. |
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27th January 2012
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#11 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 299
Thread Starter | Quote:
Originally Posted by mdoelger Basically you'll wnat to set the compressor to either even out a mix, glue it together or enhance its emotional "content" through the manipulation of dynamics.
The limiter is most of the time the last thing in the chain and used to prevent any short peaks from going over (historically, nowadays it's used to push loudness beyond sane levels.) |
I understand why you would use insert compression on individual instruments and how less dynamics on vocals or drums would help the sound but wouldn't you "even out a mix" with volume already rather than more compression?
Do AE's generally put more compression on during mastering even if they have it on individual instruments already, or is it more just if there isnt other compression on instruments?
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27th January 2012
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#12 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Feb 2010 Location: Europe
Posts: 676
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I use compressor as a glueing tool, and limiter to catch peaks. I almost never use compressors to tame peaks (fast settings), maybe that happened few times where the drums were too loud.
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28th January 2012
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#13 | | Locked away
Joined: Jan 2008 Location: In the shed
Posts: 1,007
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I think you are confused about what mastering actually is.
It's not (necessarily) what you put on your master buss when mixing.
You as a mixer send a good sounding mix to the mastering engineer. He's gonna review it and treats it with processing as a whole. He doesn't have access to the individual channels anymore. As he listens in a Perfect environment he can spot problem which you as a mixer couldn't, maybe. This could be for example too much dynamics. Like when you're mixing loud all the time your drums will most likely end up too loud. Don't ask me why. The ME then maybe can press the drums a little bit back into the mix.
Compression isn't used evertime during mastering. And when it's used it mostly for enhancing the feel of the song.
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30th January 2012
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#14 | | Gear nut
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 79
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Originally Posted by Devon8822 Do AE's generally put more compression on during mastering even if they have it on individual instruments already, or is it more just if there isnt other compression on instruments? | Really good question, I would also like to know the answer to this |
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31st January 2012
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#15 | | Locked away
Joined: Jan 2008 Location: In the shed
Posts: 1,007
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this place has become a real mess lately.
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31st January 2012
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#16 | | Mastering Moderator
Joined: Apr 2003 Location: Always on the Run
Posts: 2,950
Verified Member | Quote:
Originally Posted by craze3 Really good question, I would also like to know the answer to this  | Quote:
Originally Posted by Devon8822 I understand why you would use insert compression on individual instruments and how less dynamics on vocals or drums would help the sound but wouldn't you "even out a mix" with volume already rather than more compression?
Do AE's generally put more compression on during mastering even if they have it on individual instruments already, or is it more just if there isnt other compression on instruments? | There is no set rule. The mixer does his/her job using compression when and where he/she feels it is needed be it for artistic or technical reasons.
Contrary to widespread urban myths compression is seldom used in mastering and when needed it will be very light. Same goes for digital limiting. Bar a few exeptions where the client firmly requests smashing it to pieces the digital brickwall is likely to show a gain reduction of 1 to 1.5 decibel
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