Reference lacquer vs. pressings

[jruberto]

Today I received & reviewed the reference lacquer on a project that I mastered.

I'm sure it's a loaded question and depends on who is doing the pressing, but HOLY **** the reference lacquer sounds good. Far beyond my expectations. Just beautiful.

If the pressing is done right, are the records going to turn out pretty much the same as what I heard today?

(If you couldn't tell, this is the first project I've mastered for vinyl.)

[Gengy]

in general pressing always introduce a little bit more noises on your record due to the following works like plating,lapping and pressing of course.....but if your record is pressed firmly this should not affect much the overall sound you heard on your reference lacquer.

ciao!

[IIIrd]

The pressing will be several generations away from the reference. The reference will be as is, but as I understand it...the pressing will be from a stamper, grown from a mother grown from a father...

Gengy is right too as the there will be significantly more surface noise on the pressing and the noise will of a different character.

That aside, a good pressing will yield amazing results, and should be damned close.

[jruberto]

Originally Posted by IIIrd

The pressing will be several generations away from the reference.

And I guess that helps me put a finer point on the question -- what are the characteristics of the expected generational loss between the reference and the end product? Just surface noise (which i assume is clicks, pops & hiss)? or something else?

[Gengy]

after the lacquer master you have a loss in S/N ratio for each step of generation

[Paul Gold]

I find the sound of the top end is slightly different on an acetate than on a pressed record. It's a small difference and if you liked the ref you'll like the record.

[IIIrd]

Originally Posted by jruberto

And I guess that helps me put a finer point on the question -- what are the characteristics of the expected generational loss between the reference and the end product? Just surface noise (which i assume is clicks, pops & hiss)? or something else?

It also depends on how much de horning goes on. Optimal in Germany for instance don't dehorn, but Pallas do. A little top loss as Paul says. Good factories will try keep the polishing to dehorn to a minimum. Couple that together with good house keeping with their chemistry and maintenance and you have a recipe for some amazing results.

[Laarsø]

But, in fairness, the results of masterink will sound less amazink than the test grandmothink (i.e., test cut (lacquer reference). The test grandmother you have now should have some hiss, but no pops, and, of course, no skips or lift outs, unless you did not aligned your cart and weighted the tone arm and applied any needed anti-skeyt. Clicks pops and crackles will be added by the father/mother/son masterinks and ultimate stampinks. First 20 stampinks are discards, normally, when maschine warms up and gets its juices flowink. Just like my old lady, back in Dubrovnik. ...

If you are lovink this test cut, by all means go to masterink. But, don't skimp. And ask for bifurcated stylus playback audition of stamper, if possible, so that you are "positif" it sounds good. (*\*


Cheersø,
Laarsø

[Paul Gold]

Originally Posted by IIIrd

A little top loss as Paul says.

I generally find the top end on a production record to sound 'harder' than an acetate (even fresh). Not really more or less.

[joeaudio]

^Because lacquer is "softer" than vinyl ?
I love the sound of a fresh cut ref on a good playback system.

[Greg Reierson]

I've been seeing a lot of bad test pressings lately. The latest one was a doosey. Side one had a thump on each revolution and side two had a channel fading in and out. Good thing the band planned enough time between pressing and the scheduled release date.


GR

[jruberto]

Originally Posted by Greg Reierson

The latest one was a doosey. Side one had a thump on each revolution and side two had a channel fading in and out.

I'm curious -- did you hear a reference lacquer on these which did not exhibit those problems?

Thanks all for sharing your knowledge.

[Greg Reierson]

No, the band didn't get ref lacquers. They went straight to plating and then test pressing. The vinyl look OK to the naked eye. It seems like an intermittent cutting issue. Something wrong with the lathe and/or operator? If so, a test lacquer would not necessarily have revealed the problem. And it's strange that each side had a different problem. At the very least this was a QC failure. To borrow from BL "never turn your back on analog."

GR

[Paul Gold]

Originally Posted by joeaudio

^Because lacquer is "softer" than vinyl ?
I love the sound of a fresh cut ref on a good playback system.

In my defense I have noticed it consistently over the years. I've even taken a production record and cut a fresh acetate to compare with the production record and an acetate cut at the time of the lacquer. The top end on the acetates was pretty much the same. The record was a little different. I only did that once.

[lu432]

I personally think it all depends on the company that creates the stamper. Pressing should be fine so long as the stamper is done right. There should be no noticable difference between the pressings and the finished product, so long as the stampers were produced correctly.

There are a lot of factors that can affect a vinyl pressing such as steam pressure, water pressure, machine used, delays between puck release and actually machine pressing and flash cutting, time between shipping and flatning of the records so they take the correct shape while cooling off. There are tons of factors but the pressing plant should be doing a Q&A inspection before shipping out records, and most plant guys know what is happening with their machines and how to correct it during the first 3 or 4 record pressings to make any adjustments. Usually the first 6-10 records get thrown straight to the recycle bin because they are mostly used to ensure a caliber product is established before mass pressing and delivery to the customer.

If your concerned about the final outcome have your mastering engineer send the plant a reference so that the QA person at the Plant can listen to the Master done by the engineer and the pressings and ensure that there is consistency between the pressing and the master.

Respectfully,

Lu

[IIIrd]

Originally Posted by Paul Gold

I generally find the top end on a production record to sound 'harder' than an acetate (even fresh). Not really more or less.

There is a bit of loss i have to say. I've been cutting stuff being processed in two factories. Same program material, cut at the same time, same batch of lacquers, so quite an unusual situation. It's been interesting comparing them. One factory polishes, the other would rather sell a kidney than polish. The polished (dehorned) one is missing a little "air" the other not. The degree depends on playback system speakers etc etc.
The hardness of sound I totally agree with.

[Greg Reierson]

Originally Posted by IIIrd

The polished (dehorned) one is missing a little "air" the other not

What happens during polishing that can change the groove geometry? Aren't the horns well away from the actual playing surface?

GR

[IIIrd]

i don't know the physics, but dehorning does affect the HF.

[Ausssie0zborn]

Horns on a lacquer cut result from a loud cut, excessive stylus heat and other factors. The horn looks like a wave of lacquer splashing out of the groove. The horn contains modulation and once "de-horned" this modulation disappears.

Mothers are de-horned to allow for good separation of the vinyl from the stamper when moulding the record. A horn can actually curl over so if vinyl gets stuck under the horn, the horn soon breaks off and causes a pop or tick.

Few plants de-horn mothers seeing as pressing runs are smaller than they once were. Some plants don't even make mothers and use either one-step plating where the master is converted to a stamper or two-step plating where the once the mother has been made, the master is converted into a stamper. In this case, if the stamper fails the mother can be used to make a replacement.

The now defunct Keysor-Century Corporation (also known as K-disc) issued an excellent white paper on horns.

[Colin Leonard]

Originally Posted by Paul Gold

I generally find the top end on a production record to sound 'harder' than an acetate (even fresh). Not really more or less.

Yeah, totally agree. It's a pretty noticeable difference. The vinyl is so much harder of a surface than the soft lacquer material.

[huejahfink]

Just while I've got a few established cutters on the thread, ( I don't think it is particularly OT.... sorry if it is )

I was told recently that Acetates have been getting better at retaining info after consecutive plays, because of improvements to the materials used.

Do you think that's true?

Also, is it ever an good idea to cut an acetate to use as a source of scratch samples? Or by nature is the whole process of rubbing the record back and forth over the same sound really just too much for an acetate? (especially if you want to use it over a course of a few perfomances)

Thanks for any help you might be able to give.