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#91
22nd December 2011
Old 22nd December 2011
  #91
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@Rikk

I do not believe they use a TCSI or an ISRC for the tracking. The use digital fingerprinting technology as well as artist name, song name, album name, label name etc as there is not a reliable system

Part of what we need to work together to change

Jeff
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#92
23rd December 2011
Old 23rd December 2011
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well, i get my perfomance rights because of the ISRC... and here in Brazil, i simply could not release a record, or better explaining, to register a fonogram without it.

jeff, i am sorry, but as far as i am concerned you're misrepresenting the truth. i'll use my isrc's and you can keep your TC stuff to yourself, and to whoever else falls for that double talk... clearly it seems you are deliberately trying to divert the truth with smoke and mirrors.
#93
27th December 2011
Old 27th December 2011
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@taturana


I have no "skin" in this game. I win nothing be being right. I don't like when people are not told the truth (particularly when an entity misleads you and charges you a fee for something you do not need).

And I adamantly don't like people that choose to misrepresent things to win an argument (for example, Paul seemed to forget the RIAA lawsuit against TuneCore when Paul and I exchanged emails on this issue prior to any postings here. Further, the claim that the RIAA did not want money was simply incorrect as can be seen in the email exchange between our lawyer and the RIAA representative. Finally, as per our litigator's emails, the RIAA wanted to sell TuneCore random ISRC codes that they would not keep track of, thereby once again showing how they are valueless)

But even if that does not matter to you:

TuneCore has distributed music into Brazil and collected payments from the sale of the recordings back to the artist for the recording

In addition, it has collected payments owed to the songwriter/publisher as well from the download and stream of music in Brazil

All of these songs did not have an ISRC

I understand its hard to believe. It took four years to get the ISRC organization to finally publicly post right here on GearSlutz that you do not need an ISRC for digital distribution, the performing rights organizations or SoundExchange.

You are certainly free to use them and pay anyone anything you want

My position remains the same - you have been mislead and been made to believe something that is not correct

Any of you that have an ISRC that paid to get one did not need one to get money or have access to/from

digital music stores
performing rights organizations
SoundExchange

And if you ever bring it up, you are threatened for the loss of income to the RIAA for people not buying them, not for artists/songwriters not getting their money.

Jeff
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#94
28th December 2011
Old 28th December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Price View Post
@taturana


I have no "skin" in this game. I win nothing be being right. I don't like when people are not told the truth (particularly when an entity misleads you and charges you a fee for something you do not need).

And I adamantly don't like people that choose to misrepresent things to win an argument (for example, Paul seemed to forget the RIAA lawsuit against TuneCore when Paul and I exchanged emails on this issue prior to any postings here. Further, the claim that the RIAA did not want money was simply incorrect as can be seen in the email exchange between our lawyer and the RIAA representative. Finally, as per our litigator's emails, the RIAA wanted to sell TuneCore random ISRC codes that they would not keep track of, thereby once again showing how they are valueless)

But even if that does not matter to you:

TuneCore has distributed music into Brazil and collected payments from the sale of the recordings back to the artist for the recording

In addition, it has collected payments owed to the songwriter/publisher as well from the download and stream of music in Brazil

All of these songs did not have an ISRC

I understand its hard to believe. It took four years to get the ISRC organization to finally publicly post right here on GearSlutz that you do not need an ISRC for digital distribution, the performing rights organizations or SoundExchange.

You are certainly free to use them and pay anyone anything you want

My position remains the same - you have been mislead and been made to believe something that is not correct

Any of you that have an ISRC that paid to get one did not need one to get money or have access to/from

digital music stores
performing rights organizations
SoundExchange

And if you ever bring it up, you are threatened for the loss of income to the RIAA for people not buying them, not for artists/songwriters not getting their money.

Jeff
I get paid every time my songs are played on radio, as an author, producer and interpreter, the musicians and arrangers also get paid their rights because of the ISRC, i also get paid my rights when my songs are played live by other bands (10% of the box office is shared among authors according to Brazilian law)... TC cannot do that for me. It's how the law works here... and it's not petty money btw.. over the past few years, just performing rights for one song netted over 50k dollars... do you think i would like to give that up? I have friends who get paid over 20k a month just in performing rights.... which many times is more than they make selling cd's or downloads... you may even think you are distributing correctly.. but if the song gets played on radio, or tv or played live by a band, or even mechanically played in a shopping mall, for example,... your clients get paid nilch!

Also if there's a standard, accepted worldwide it's the ISRC... what i don't understand is why you want to make up your own , imho, worthless code? And please dont keep saying people pay expensive rates for isrc codes...as many people have said here, it's simply not true. as i said i only paid 50 dollars to get my first ISRC 3-letter code, the other one was free of charge ( i have 2: one for me, one for my publishing company ) which as you can see from the figures i posted was a darn good investment... i made it back on the first month.

here we have a central rights office (ECAD), that gathers the money and enforces the law , and a few PRO's (it's a free choice which one you join and it's free) who pay up the rights to their associates... in order to register a phonogram you need to fill out a form for every song (given to me by my PRO) which includes the name of the song, authors, publishers and the ISRC code as well as the producer's signature were he declares that those informations are the truth under penalty of law. without that you cannot manufacture a cd or receive any rights. that goes in to the central office system (ECAD) and that's how the song is registered. My PRO here has always been very helpful in all the paperwork i've had to do... and the money gets deposited every month without any problems in my account. To make it even more clear, we do not have a choice to ignore the ECAD system, as it's written even in the Brazilian Constitution.

oh, and BTW the RIAA is irrelevant to me here... here we have the ABPD and ABPI (for indies), so, not only are you wrong but you are only considering the US.
#95
29th December 2011
Old 29th December 2011
  #95
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@taturana

TuneCore has distributed music into Brazil and collected payments from the sale of the recordings back to the artist for the recording

In addition, it has collected payments owed to the songwriter/publisher as well from the download and stream of music in Brazil

All of these songs did not have an ISRC.

The ISRC is already worthless, I did not cause it to be worthless. Thats the point.

There is no worldwide standard, if there was, than every digital music store would use ISRC codes to track sales. None of them do. Not a single one.

Every single one uses their own unique ID.

It is not my place to tell you what to pay for or how to spend you money - that is your decision.

My issue is the RIAA (and apparently so has your local organization) misrepresented the truth by suggesting that an ISRC code is needed for digital distribution, SoundExchange and the PROs.

ISRCs are not used by PROs. PROs use their own identifier that is not in any way tied to an ISRC

And that system does not work either

For example, for iTunes Japan to have the right to include your composition (song), it needs two rights - the right of Communication (aka Public Performance) and the right of Reproduction. Neither of these two have anything to do with an ISRC.

The japanese collection agency JASRAC may have the right of "Communication" passed to it from your local PRO. If it does, it then can issue a license to iTunes. iTunes than pays JASRAC. JASRAC does not use an ISRC code to track where to send this money.

JASRAC will take between 12.5 - 22% of your money as an admin fee and about 9 months later kick it back to your PRO. Your PRO will take another 3.5% of your money and pay it to you in about another 6 - 9 months (about 15 - 18 months after you earned it)

You will have no idea what your royalty rate should be nor what was taken before it got to you.

The SECOND royalty owed to you for "Reproduction" is NOT passed back to your PRO. There are no reciprocating rights for mechanical royalties. your money sits in Japan with JASRAC. JASRAC takes about 15% of your money as a "fee", sits on it and then gives your money to Warner, Sony etc based on their market share.

THe only way you can get your Reproduction royalties (also known as Mechanical Royalties") is to become a member of JASRAC

To become a member of JASRAC you must have a business in Japan and not be a member of any other PRO (like ECAD)

Same idea and principal holds true with over 200+ collection agencies around the world.

So lets go back to ISRC codes, how exactly will a ISRC code get your songwriter money?

And now lets go to the other royalty, the one owed to the entity that owns the recording of the song (the label).

The digital music stores do not use ISRC codes to track sales and make payments - you get all of this money.

ISRC codes are not a standard - they are not used by PROs, they are not used by digital stores and they are not used by SoundExchange

jeff
#96
29th December 2011
Old 29th December 2011
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Price View Post

The ISRC is already worthless, I did not cause it to be worthless. Thats the point.

There is no worldwide standard, if there was, than every digital music store would use ISRC codes to track sales. None of them do. Not a single one.

...

My issue is the RIAA (and apparently so has your local organization) misrepresented the truth by suggesting that an ISRC code is needed for digital distribution, SoundExchange and the PROs.



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#97
29th December 2011
Old 29th December 2011
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Jeff..

it seems to me you simply can't read.

You are simply blabbering thru your front teeth. You simply cannot collect direct rights here if you don't have the ISRC, or manufacture a CD in Brazil, or ,as a brazilian, register to receive your rights in Brazil. and i am not talking only about downloads
I haven't paid anything but 50 dollars, which i received many times back, so forget this talk about money, it would cost me more to lose my mechanical and connected rights ( 33% of all rights paid ) which would happen if i invent my own code....... It's the LAW here... it's in the farking CONSTITUTION, for christ's sake, and as a Petrous Clause, which cannot be amended or changed, can't you even grasp that? Do you even know what connected rights are? (rights owed to the interpreter, arrangers, musicians as well as the producers), you don't have those in the US, or a central office in charge of rights management AFAIK, which is why you are able to use that loophole to increase your profit margin for as long as you can do it.

THE LAW here states that the ECAD controls ALL rights in Brazil, even those owed to foreign musicians..ALL THE PRO'S here have to follow the LAW. it is not an option. or open for discussion. ECAD is not a PRO it stands for Escritorio Central de Arrecadação de Direitos Autorais (central office or revenue of right or something of the sort), it does not pay anyone, but the PRO's which in turn pay their associates. up to a few years ago we had the GRA system which was only implemented in Brazil, and the ISRC substituted it for the better.

YOu are talking about something you don't know and are trying to convince me that water is not wet...

My PRO is paying up my rights... you are simply trying to sell your solution by saying whatever you decide the truth is.. even if it bears no relevance to the real truth. Very typical of the type of entrepreneur we've been seeing lately on the Internet...

Unfortunately, forum rules do not allow me to tell you my real opinion of what you are doing, not with full sincerity. But i can't say i will let you off easy with this. And i think the RIAA is quite correct in pursuing legal reparations from TC.
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#98
30th December 2011
Old 30th December 2011
  #98
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So I have been really looking into the digital fingerprinting technologies. I find it fascinating how they use a spectrogram to create a fingerprint for the audio, but as awesome as it may be; I still think the ISRC code would be more reliable. Most of the fingerprinting technologies seam to only need about a 10 second sample of the audio and not the entire piece. That would be great, but it doesn’t guarantee that each recording of a song would be separately identified (Remixes). With the ISRC code each version would be uniquely identified.

Does anyone know what is currently being done to improve the broadcasting tracking and tabulating system here in America?

From a broadcasters standpoint, I noticed some have issues identifying the ISRC codes off of their media and that is one reason why sound exchange also uses label, artist, album, and year information in conjunction. So are broadcasters not being supplied the right resources to know how to do these things? You would think this could be an automated process.

Implementing digital fingerprinting, as the identification process I would imagine would be even more difficult than identifying a single code.

-rikk palmer
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#99
30th December 2011
Old 30th December 2011
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rikkpalmer View Post
...Does anyone know what is currently being done to improve the broadcasting tracking and tabulating system here in America?...
I think the recordings need to be submitted to the companies that offer the tracking services. ASCAP and BMI both claim to be using it.

This is all going to come to a head once US broadcasters finally have to start paying artists in addition to music publishers and songwriters.
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#100
30th December 2011
Old 30th December 2011
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Price View Post
And thats my issue - artists have gotten treated poorly over the years. They deserve the truth, they are smart enough to make the right decisions.

jeff
They are - and thanks to innovative concepts like those of Apple, Tunecore, Bandcamp, Google, etc. the industry has already changed - we are only guessing what's possible.

Go on Jeff

#101
12th January 2012
Old 12th January 2012
  #101
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570$ US DOLLAR for ISRC Code in Switzerland !

I read now most of the posts here through this thread... I find Jeff's points very interesting. He must have nerves pointing the same statements over and over again. At least he convinced me to think more through for this. Thank you Jeff ! My question is only, why do broadcasters always ask for ISRC Codes?! At least here in europe.

Well, I am musician from switzerland and if you want to get an ISRC Code in swiss you have to register at IFPI and register as Label(artists can do that, too), they check if the label name is free and charge you 540 Swiss Franks for an ISRC Code ! That's 570 US DOLLARS !!!
Also the same price for the Label Code, which is required for air-play in germany. As far as I know. Royalties do NOT get payed through ISRC's here in swiss, it's just a very expensive identification code. Radio's need them - why, I'll find out someday....
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#102
13th January 2012
Old 13th January 2012
  #102
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Sounds like you are getting ripped off... Careful listening to Jeff or anyone with an alternative agendas as well. Always do your own research ;0)
#103
16th January 2012
Old 16th January 2012
  #103
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If every distributor starts implementing their own codes, there will never be a global standard.

My clients ask about ISRC's. I send them a Link to register online. In Canada its free and its almost instant So might as well, what do you have to lose.
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#104
17th February 2012
Old 17th February 2012
  #104
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well, i find this fascinating, mostly as observing a very intense industry person absolutely convinced of his viewpoint, and not realizing very much about how it appears to be a rather undiplomatic way to come across.

anyway, it's a behavioral thing. however, the idea that the company isn't strong enough to keep their CEO from peeing on their own product image is a bit disturbing. it seems at least he would have figured out a good way to pitch Tunecore's services without repeatedly shooting other industry people in the head. Jeff has voiced many things, over and over, and carefully, or unconsciously, sticking to his guns while not necessarily answering the questions put to him. <i think he's Republican.> i'm not sure he realizes that a lot of people are reading the thread. people much bigger than he. (not me, i'm nothing).

for me, my time of recommending Tunecore is over, although it seems that just putting in my own ISRC at Tunecore bypasses this whole sorry affair. for any company who belabors the money paid for an ISRC code (at the most, $75 to have 100,000 songs per year, for life; at the least, $0), as opposed to having to pay them a yearly maintenance fee --with the threat of pulling all your material from the stores they don't own-- is laughable. they might as well have the slogan "Better than Nothing!" it seems Mr. Price would actually believe it.

at least, Jeff was funny to read, and has clearly revealed what he really is, even if we're not sure it's definable. sometimes his strident tone and writing style was so jumpy, i surely think he must have been bouncing in his Herman Miller, undoubtedly spotting his boxers several times.





anyone know about indigoboom.com? (formerly bizmo). they have a flat rate per year, unlimited, and yes they do take a percentage too. bizmo took no percentage, although that seems to have been an unworkable business model (without going to a per-album model, as tunecore has had for years).

i too wish for a thread with a Golden Recipe for artists to make sure they're getting their money. ISRC, UPC, PROs, etc. in a nice neat descriptive "how-to".
#105
17th February 2012
Old 17th February 2012
  #105
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Jeff, maybe you can answer one question?

I understand the point that an ISRC code may not be required.

BUT why not go with the flow and use them anyway?

It does not cost you anything. It does not cost your artist anything.

I am in the UK and went with CD Baby. I am very happy that they made the metadata issues clear. We got our own ISRC prefix from the UK for free and did all the paperwork. It feels good that we made a proper release all documented correctly etc.

It feels bad that you are recommending to the artists that use your service to not use ISRCs just because you personally don't see the point. As a service provider you should offer professional and un-biased advice.

Also, remember what the I in ISRC stands for. It's not just America.
#106
17th February 2012
Old 17th February 2012
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ONDRAY View Post
If every distributor starts implementing their own codes, there will never be a global standard.

This confuses me............................

It's going to be VERY confusing when things become interplanetary.
#107
17th February 2012
Old 17th February 2012
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it make no sense to not use ISRC codes.. its at least recognized globally.. why would one not?

it could be 'argued' that since tunecore charges a fee part of that money is used to pay for whatever codes they devise and use..

there is no 'high moral ground' here.. the issue is do I have every bass covered when it comes to tracking and identifying my music ..without ISRC codes the answer is no ...I don't

peace
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#108
13th March 2012
Old 13th March 2012
  #108
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#109
13th March 2012
Old 13th March 2012
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baoboa View Post
...IFPI has been unable or unwilling to provide me with answers...
Are you saying they have out and out refused to give you a registrant code?
#110
13th March 2012
Old 13th March 2012
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#111
13th March 2012
Old 13th March 2012
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May I ask where you live?
#112
13th March 2012
Old 13th March 2012
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#113
13th March 2012
Old 13th March 2012
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China
Maybe if you lived in a bigger country...
#114
13th March 2012
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#115
13th March 2012
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I can see China is a mess. I assume you are getting the run-around from: IFPI, 10 Piccadilly, London W1J 0DD, United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0)20 7878 7952; Fax: +44 (0)20 7878 7950
Email: isrc@ifpi.org

Maybe somebody reading this in England can help. You might also post something about it in the music business forum.
#116
27th December 2012
Old 27th December 2012
  #116
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Some observations about this thread

I've read the whole thread. Including the outcropping of the thread at the TC forums. I have do not have any affiliation with Tunecore (Yet. this is why I am researching these issues) So far, here are my observations:

1) Every single person that has commented on this thread has absolutely no *verifiable* credibility except two people; Jeff from TC and Paul from ISRC.
I hesitate to say this but, having been an very early user of the interwebs and witnessed quite a few threads over many years, it looks to me as though some of the key commenters on this one are what we used to call "trolls". (meaning someone that intentionally says something preposterous so as to incite an argument. Usually with ulterior motives)
Regardless, the validity of all of this seems to boil down to comments from primary Jeff and Paul, since they are the only two that actually work in the admin side of the industry and deal with this stuff on a daily basis- and who you believe based on the information given.

2) I believe that Jeff from TC is being truthful. However, what I see is that he might be a bit emotionally clouded by the threats and the potential law suit that came from the ISRC. This is a normal human emotion when threatened and in some ways this might speak to his passion regarding artists, their money, and in my eyes, helps his validity.

3) Paul from ISRC never answered about allowing emails between he and Jeff to go public. Paul also tried and failed to jump in on the "conspiracy comments" from pages before in an attempt to discredit Jeff. This is a tool that sometimes works within these types of discussions. Depending on the posters. The trick is to get everyone on same page and to say "hey everyone, this guy is nuts! let's gang up on him!" It, along with other similar attempts during this long thread did not work and it does not speak well of Paul from ISRC.

4) Jeff from TC has been amazingly patient with some of the folks in this forum. He has maintained a rational stance (though admitted he was angry) and not once belittled or threw mud. Furthermore, how many CEOs of large companies are willing to take the time to jump in the trenches during discussions like these? This is the first I've seen that I can remember, other than the obligatory "we value our customers and we are working on it" stuff that we have all seen from other corporate heads but normally spouted by customer service reps.

I don't know Jeff, but he reads to me as though he is being passionate (which might mean he actually cares about this issue as opposed to lip service) and honest.

Just my opinion
SP

Last edited by studio padank; 27th December 2012 at 02:32 AM.. Reason: Clarity
#117
27th December 2012
Old 27th December 2012
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ISRC in Brazil?

The one unclear issue that I am curious about within this thread is the need for ISRC codes in Brazil. I think what I understood is that the gentleman from Brazil said that you must have it for Radio play according to law. (and maybe other Brazilian PRO collections??)
Whereas Jeff from Tunecore was making it clear that you do not need ISRC codes for iTunes and other Brazilian digital sellers. Is that what everyone else understood?
Just curious and always trying to learn more about the complexities of the ever-changing music industry.
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#118
27th December 2012
Old 27th December 2012
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My opinion is that it does not serve the interest of artists for any company to make up registration numbers out of thin air that are not part of the ISRC system in order to save some money. They can't help potential licensees locate the owner of a recording and I understand it can create problems for any artist seeking to collect royalties outside the United States where ISRCs are used to keep track of ownership.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine. At least I have the guts to use my name.
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#119
27th December 2012
Old 27th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studio padank View Post
The one unclear issue that I am curious about within this thread is the need for ISRC codes in Brazil. I think what I understood is that the gentleman from Brazil said that you must have it for Radio play according to law.
Jeff was talking about practice in the United States. The fact is that our music is played all over the world.
#120
27th December 2012
Old 27th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
My opinion is that it does not serve the interest of artists for any company to make up registration numbers out of thin air that are not part of the ISRC system in order to save some money. They can't help potential licensees locate the owner of a recording and I understand it can create problems for any artist seeking to collect royalties outside the United States where ISRCs are used to keep track of ownership.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine. At least I have the guts to use my name.
not sure I agree with the thin air part of the statement .. but I certainly agree that if there is an accepted format, such as ISRC tracking, that actually works it should be used. I also know that the 'fingerprinting' idendification works to match and ID material ..but it 'seems to me' that it needs to point to a univerally accepted data base and not one that is devised by each aggregater... tracking plays and sales from itunes etc is the most important aspect of using such a service for me not the sales from their site...soo for me... the more identifiers there are the better
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