fade outs - at mix or at mastering?

[Dan DeTora]

i'm currently mixing a gospel album for an indie label, and the producer has requested that i perform fade outs before its sent to the ME. i suggested that this can and probably should be done in mastering - my point of view being that fade curves and timing will depend on the final sequence of the album, and committing fades now would give the ME less options. he disagreed. no skin off my back, but i was wondering how mastering engineers feel about this.

[Brad Blackwood]

Most people handle the fades in the mix. Some save it for mastering, but unless the session is attended it's probably better to do it while mixing...

[Raw-Tracks]

I usually do the fades at the mix stage. I often find that I might execute a fade on the master fader, but then I might right certain channel up during that fade. Sometimes the guitar sustain may get lost on the master fader fadeout. In that case I might ride the guitar channels up to compensate. Or maybe it's a percussion part that gets lost in the master fade. Those situations would not be able to be compensated for at mastering.

[Jerry Tubb]

Originally Posted by dtrax

the producer has requested that i perform fade outs before its sent to the ME. i suggested that this can and probably should be done in mastering...

Both ways have their advantages.

1. Fades at mixing... settles the question in advance, helps mastering to go more quickly, but limits further options, just make sure you're happy with them, careful not to cut them too short.

2. Fades at mastering... leaves your options open for more creative sequencing. Works better for "concept" records with lots of cross-fades, critical timing, & live records.

May depend on the complexity of the material. But if the Producer says to fade it, then you probably oughta do it in advance.

Cheers

[Masterer]

It's best to send the faded files [in sequence if the session will be unattended] along with the unfaded files [or unfaded master tapes if it's analog]. Let the ME match the fades but keep the options open.

[Bob Boyd]

I ask for the mixes to be left without fades whenever given the option. When things are faded at the mix stage, as the fade is happening, you're getting the same effect as raising your thresholds on you compressors and limiting. Any mastering dynamics will 'uncompress' if the fade is done at the mix stage.

As long as the producer tells you when to start and end the fade, you've got the best of both worlds.

[ShamansDream]

Depending on the character of the fade, you might want to instruct the ME what you are looking for in fades rather than apply them by making a reference clip of each critical fade. Since the CD format comes from the ME, the fade will be dithered down to 44.1/16 and should be done by the ME anyhow. Maybe you need a new ME

[lucey]

Originally Posted by ambientdig

I ask for the mixes to be left without fades whenever given the option. When things are faded at the mix stage, as the fade is happening, you're getting the same effect as raising your thresholds on you compressors and limiting. Any mastering dynamics will 'uncompress' if the fade is done at the mix stage.

As long as the producer tells you when to start and end the fade, you've got the best of both worlds.

Agree.



Longer or ducked fades can be an essential part of the whole record, or they can just be fadeouts. If they're essential, leaving them for last allows it to be just so. Fading the mix seems good at the time, but what if a song order changes, or the record grows during mastering where a fade is now too long or too short?

A fade is an intention.

[jayfrigo]

If the fade is integral to the song, doing it at the mix is often best, or at least know what you want and attend the mastering session to make sure it gets done correctly. Detailed notes or an example snippet from your DAW can also work if you can't be at the session but need a critical fade done in mastering.

If it really needs to be "performed" and the feel is of the utmost importance, you probably should get it right during the mix when you're in that creative head space. If it's just a generic, "start a fade about 20 seconds before the end and be out before the drums stop playing," then have it done at mastering. It will probably be cleaner. But in the final analysis, it's the client's call. We're here to serve your needs, not the other way around.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Brad Blackwood

Most people handle the fades in the mix. Some save it for mastering, but unless the session is attended it's probably better to do it while mixing...

Understood. It's one approach. But let me offer an alternative and a different perspective.

---I like to recommend the mix engineer supply two versions, one with his "ideal fadeout" and one without the fadeout. The "ideal" fadeout may sound fabulous in isolation, but when the mastering processing is added and when the song is heard in context, a whole new vision sometimes comes through. Not always, but sometimes.

---I had an engineer send me a 10 song CD, 7 of which had fadeouts. As he realized that just might start sounding boring, he included non-faded versions. Thanks to his foresight, with my tools, I was able to turn two of those into convincing and very musical endings that helped the musicality of the CD.

---Many engineers have a tendency to prolong fadeouts; I say "prolong" because the pace of the fadeout has to go along with the feel and pace of the album, and I feel that only in context with how the album is paced can you get the "ideal" fade. It's a matter of feel; sometimes it matters, usually it doesn't, but why paint yourself into a corner? Yes, Brad's point is valid, who has the vision of the album better than the artist or the musician? But my response is that an album takes on its final vision when it is assembled and mastered, and in the mastering, we can help to realise your vision holistically. I often put up test masters as mp3s on ftp, and there's no risk there, everyone gets to hear how it's coming together and love, accept, or reject the way it's coming out. That's why I recommend, "don't paint yourself into a corner with fadeouts", at least supply an alternative, if it's not too much trouble. Remember, it takes no time to do it right the first time, but forever to fix after the fact.

---The stock fadeouts in Pro Tools are not always so "cool". In SADiE, Sequoia and other mastering DAWs, or with a just plain analog fader we can engineer the ideal fadeout that works well in conjunction with mastering processing and the pace of the album at that point in the album. The fade and the pause between the songs go together, too. If all you have is Pro Tools and not that much experience with fades, try getting the fade you like, send it, and the alternative; I always listen to your fade first. If it sounds good to me, I use it, if it sounds like I could do better, I try to do better.

---It's surprising how many clients send fades that are cut off at the tail, that sound like they dropped off a cliff. Please isten to your fades very carefully, especially if your room has fans or is noisy. Headphones are good, but the flip side of headphones is they exagerrate the length of fades and they will inevitably sound 1 to 5 seconds shorter in a real room.

I could go on and on, just wanted to supply "the flip side of fades."

[Jan Folkson]

I nearly always leave the fade out for the me. I also always attend mastering sessions.