Problem with mastering!

[Metal_Core96]

Hi everyone! I'm new to this forum. I play mostly metalcore, and i like to mix and master the songs my self. I'm not a pro, i'm self taught, reading threads on gearslutz, other forums, reading articles, watching videos and practicing. My mixes sound awesome, but there's a problem i get during the mastering process. I use Waves mercury bundle, here's the mastering chain:

Compressor;
Parametric eq (to boost or lower certain frequencies);
Parametric eq (to cut everything below 30 hz;
Multiband compressor;
Harmonic exciter;
Limiter.

So here's the problem. Basically, by adding the limiter, i set the cieling and then play with the threshold. Meantime i use s(M)exoscope plugin, which shows me the waveform of the audio. By analizing professional mixed and mastered songs, you can clearly see that there aren't any peaks in the waveform, and (the waveform) it always stays around 0db without noticeable differences in volume. To get that type of waveform i usually have to lose my kick!!!!
When i achieve that waveform (always wathcing the smexoscope) i can't hear the kick anymore. I don't know what i'm doing wrong! So, if someone can give me a hand it would be IMMENSLEY appreciated!

[IIIrd]

Turn the level down and simplify your chain,

you may find dynamics to be your key.

[Metal_Core96]

How should I simplify it? What plugins should i use and which should i not use? I know i should experiment with different settings, but as I said before, i'm not a pro, so a little hand would be appreciated! >.< Anyway, thanks for the reply

[IIIrd]

Originally Posted by Metal_Core96

How should I simplify it? What plugins should i use and which should i not use? I know i should experiment with different settings, but as I said before, i'm not a pro, so a little hand would be appreciated! >.< Anyway, thanks for the reply

Try, just a compressor and be gentle with it. Small ratios and small gain reduction. On my Junger I select 1.1:1 ratio, maybe 1.2:1.

and use 1 eq, make your eq general. Stick to small boosts and cuts, 0.5 dB or 1 for starters. Make the bandwidth's quite broad. Use a HPF 40hz is a good place to start, anything much below that is quite frankly wasted and will play hell with your limiter.

And then the limiter if you need to make it louder.

Be subtle, less goes a long way and small changes usually have allot of effect.

If your mixes sound awesome to you then you shouldn't need to do much. It sounds to me like you're trying too hard. Keep it simple and enjoy yourself,

Experiment.

[Dene]

please step away from the "scope"...is it usual for people to say things like professional masters all have the same frequency responses...
frequency analysis is handy when identifying problem frequencies. Use your ears to judge your work not a scope.
Not to be cruel but forget everything you think you know and simplify.
Your signal chain has 6 things in it my usual has 3...

[ritelec]

Originally Posted by IIIrd

Turn the level down and simplify your chain,

you may find dynamics to be your key.

Hey Sean..............

I made a brief visit to abbey road back in 84 (to use the rest room) in an attempt to pursue a career in music when I was a kid(ish)(23yrs).
Thank you for the use of the facilities.

Back on topic.
Metal_Core96,
Not to be an advocate for or against that loudness war thing.......but...

check here:
The Loudness War - YouTube

and here:

Level Practices (Part 2) (Includes the K-System)



Not a pro....but works better for me.

And yes.....Have fun!!!!


rich

[Cellotron]

My suggestions:
First - don't look at the spectrum scope. It has absolutely nothing to do with the sound - and what you see on other mixes likely has no relevance to creating good sounding results with your own. Just listen instead using the cleanest, most accurate and fullest range monitors you can get.

Next - for metalcore I generally don't use compressors (especially multiband ones) if I can get away with it. The main reason to use a compressor is if there are elements of the mix that poke out or come "unglued" from the body of the mix, or that occasionally sound overly sharp or brittle. However when you apply comps across the entire mix, unless set very carefully, you can also risk softening up percussive elements and losing some of the punch and snap that was in the mix. So - if you still have access to the mix you might want to just compress only at the track level more as needed. Also if you are losing kicks from compression you can use a longer attack (i.e. somewhere in the 30ms zone) and use a high pass on the side chain so that the compression doesn't clamp down on the kicks as much. Again - your mix might not need compression on the stereo-bus - so try leaving it off and seeing if you like this better.

Next - unless you are mastering for long vinyl record sides there is no reason to apply a 30Hz high pass filter by default. The only reason to do it is if there is unwanted unmusical rumble or too much information down there. There are a few elements to a kick - the under the floor part (which can definitely exist that far down) and the thump you in the chest part (which is more somewhre in the 60Hz - 120Hz are), and the click on the beater part (which is often somewhere in the mids). So - again - only apply this if you actually need to, by listening with a full range system and seeing whether you have too much down there. Go back to your original mix and work to define this better to where you want it. Sometime boosting with narrow Q's at some point can help pull it out of a mix, and sometimes is necessary to counter the effects of things like limiters or compressors reducing the presence of the kick.

I'd say the same thing for the harmonic exciter - there's no reason to put this on by default - as generally these will add high end but at the cost of making the overall sound edgier, thinner and more brittle. You might want to instead go back to the original mix and eq on a track by track basis to add brightness or upper mids to elements that might need this if you are feeling you always want to add a harmonic exciter. Sometimes cutting low mids or lows a little out of some elements allows the other elements to have more space to exist in - but with metalcore generally really thick guitars is a necessity - so you really have to be careful with cutting on these as sometimes this will take away the body or "balls" of these that is something that you generally will want to leave untouched or even enhanced.

As far as limiting - there are indeed a number of limiter plugins that will eat up your kicks or mush the sound a good bit - so you need to demo a few to find out which ones will work best for you. One freeware one that does clipping more than limiting - so it tends to not to kill punch and snap as much (but at the cost of introducing a bit of distortion you need to watch out for) - is the GVST GClip - maybe try this - maybe in combination with your usual limiter not dialed so strongly in - GVST - GClip

Generally the first thing I do before anything else is just apply whatever I am using to bring up the average level to where I want it - so put on the limiter or clipper first - as this can change the sound a bit - so I make additional eq and compression processing decisions only after I hear what the effect of this will be.

Hope that helps.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[IIIrd]

Originally Posted by ritelec

Hey Sean..............

I made a brief visit to abbey road back in 84 (to use the rest room) in an attempt to pursue a career in music when I was a kid(ish)(23yrs).
Thank you for the use of the facilities.

Back on topic.
Metal_Core96,
Not to be an advocate for or against that loudness war thing.......but...

check here:
The Loudness War - YouTube

and here:

Level Practices (Part 2) (Includes the K-System)



Not a pro....but works better for me.

And yes.....Have fun!!!!


rich

Which one did you use?

[ritelec]

Originally Posted by IIIrd

Which one did you use?

which loo or facility?

Not sure.....long time ago....
think it's the one I see in clips.

Gate/fence.....drive in...white building door.

I stressed my point of having to go.

A security guard let me in. I used the head. Was walking back out, peered into a large room with beatle pics (may have been recording room). Security man keeping close eye on me.....I left.

This really looks like what I remember.........

[IIIrd]

Originally Posted by ritelec

which loo or facility?

Not sure.....long time ago....
think it's the one I see in clips.

Gate/fence.....drive in...white building door.

I stressed my point of having to go.

A security guard let me in. I used the head. Was walking back out, peered into a large room with beatle pics (may have been recording room). Security man keeping close eye on me.....I left.

This really looks like what I remember.........

Probably the ground floor, then...long corridor?

security are on the ball

Building hasn't changed much at all..a couple of coats of paint and some different photo's...and different guard i guess


Back on topic, though,
I disagree the HPF's are more for vinyl. Having sub frequencies is ok, but it does depend on your target audience, 30hz is very very low indeed and most peoples systems dont go there, nor do most cars, or ipod buds. I find removing that content "tightens " up the sound generally, and gives you more flexibility when entering the gladiatorial world of the loudness war. Each to his own and I mean no criticism of Cellotron by this.

[ritelec]

Originally Posted by IIIrd

Probably the ground floor, then...long corridor?

ha ha ha yep...... head if I remember was down on the right......
Large room would have been on the right walking back out......

Thanks for the flashback!!!

[IIIrd]

Originally Posted by ritelec

ha ha ha yep...... head if I remember was down on the right......
Large room would have been on the right walking back out......

Thanks for the flashback!!!

Large room would have been studio 3 live room i guess and you'd have walked past studio 2 control room on your way to the john

[ritelec]

Thanks again for the memories.


I hope to get back someday.

never say never



rich

[ritelec]

Just one more thing Sean...

Did a quick google on you.

Nice .

Debbie Harry ????? from my home town.....

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by IIIrd

Back on topic, though,
I disagree the HPF's are more for vinyl. Having sub frequencies is ok, but it does depend on your target audience, 30hz is very very low indeed and most peoples systems dont go there, nor do most cars, or ipod buds. I find removing that content "tightens " up the sound generally, and gives you more flexibility when entering the gladiatorial world of the loudness war. Each to his own and I mean no criticism of Cellotron by this.

Well - it definitely depends on the mix. If things are anemic in the low end and there's nothing down there in the first place then putting in an HPF to take out 30Hz is also cutting the low end a little bit higher than that and could in fact run counter to the actual processing needed to bring out the best in the mix. There's tons of mixes in a variety of genres that fully intend to have something down in the 30Hz zone as well. I think you just need to press play and see whether it's too much before deciding to cut in these cases - and there's certainly been times when I've boosted at around 40Hz with Q's wide enough to pull up a little at 30Hz as well. Not everyone is looking for "tightened" up low end either - there's some producers I've worked with (Gabe Roth of Daptone Records comes to mind) who truly prefer the round looseness of the bass on their original mixes and make a big issue of making sure it is kept in tact as best possible on the master.

So - yeah - I'll certainly use an HPF on masters when called for and have both analog and digital options to use - but I certainly never default to using them and probably only use them on about less than a third of the mixes I receive.
Obviously OMMV! (and I do need to note that when I was cutting DMM sides that it was very rare that I ever cut without an HPF in the processing chain though).

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Laarsø]

Originally Posted by Metal_Core96

...I play mostly metalcore, and i like to mix and master the songs my self... My mixes sound awesome, but there's a problem i get during the mastering process:

Compressor;
Parametric eq (to boost or lower certain frequencies);
Parametric eq (to cut everything below 30 hz;
Multiband compressor;
Harmonic exciter;
Limiter.

So here's the problem...By analizing professional mixed and mastered songs, you can clearly see that there aren't any peaks in the waveform...

The word, waveform quite literally implies that peaks are present. They may all be the same, if limited or a sample is repeated, but they're still peaking. If there really were no peaks, the signal would be all DC. Zoom in more, and you will see up and down movement of the graphic of the sample splines.

No premastering clerk who does good work paints by numbers. The meters are only there for forensic purposes, but not to guide the knob-twiddler. This can only be guided by voices, or by the way the voice coils make the music _sound_ in your dedicated listening environment.

Originally Posted by Metal_Core96

When i achieve that waveform (always wathcing the smexoscope) i can't hear the kick anymore. I don't know what i'm doing wrong! So, if someone can give me a hand it would be IMMENSLEY appreciated!

Where are you doing the premastering work? If in the same room as that in which you mixed, move to a different room. The acoustics of the first suite will never let you hear what's wrong with the mix - especially since you refer to it as already sounding "awesome." If they sounded, "meh," you might have a fighting chance at improving on your work with stereo effects in the mixing room. But since you already like how it sounds, you should give the premastering assignment to a specialist for whom it will be relatively easy to notice sonic oddities (and who works in a different studio).

Prince and Steveland Morris might play all their own instruments, but they don't mix and they don't premaster... With all doom respect, this should be telling you not to kilobite off so much, next time... Even musical geniuses (Renaissance HuMen) know their (own) limits..



Cheersø,
Laarsø

[IIIrd]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

Well - it definitely depends on the mix. If things are anemic in the low end and there's nothing down there in the first place then putting in an HPF to take out 30Hz is also cutting the low end a little bit higher than that and could in fact run counter to the actual processing needed to bring out the best in the mix. There's tons of mixes in a variety of genres that fully intend to have something down in the 30Hz zone as well. I think you just need to press play and see whether it's too much before deciding to cut in these cases - and there's certainly been times when I've boosted at around 40Hz with Q's wide enough to pull up a little at 30Hz as well. Not everyone is looking for "tightened" up low end either - there's some producers I've worked with (Gabe Roth of Daptone Records comes to mind) who truly prefer the round looseness of the bass on their original mixes and make a big issue of making sure it is kept in tact as best possible on the master.

So - yeah - I'll certainly use an HPF on masters when called for and have both analog and digital options to use - but I certainly never default to using them and probably only use them on about less than a third of the mixes I receive.
Obviously OMMV! (and I do need to note that when I was cutting DMM sides that it was very rare that I ever cut without an HPF in the processing chain though).

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Totally with you there with DMM Steve

Generally I use a HPF at 34Hz with a 24dB slope. Brutal but when adding low end it all conspires for a nice tight thump. For me it lessens the "woof" so to speak...(getting techy here LOL). Horses for courses though, thats half the fun of it, no rules.

Best
Sean

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by H. Badger

I believe that a single human can mix and master, in the same room, with good results.

It is advisable that the room be a good room. There should be no acoustic problems that either prevent, or significantly inhibit, the listener from receiving substantially accurate information. To the same end, it is important that the equipment, including the monitors [obviously] be reasonably good.

It is advisable for the human to be objective during mixing, and necessary that he / she remain so while mastering. I believe the second half of that "premise" is not so hard to come by as many on these forums would suggest.

I believe that the reasons why many busy, successful mix engineers do not master have very little, if anything, to do with whether or not they have the engineering skill or objectivity to accomplish it.

Yours truly,

H. Badger

A BIG SMILE Yea and after I have just spent days and weeks doing the recording and mixing I am really going to be super objective of the mastering that I am doing with the SAME equipment and the SAME room/ monitoring set up I used for the mixing. Simply put [IT AIN'T GOING TO HAPPEN!] Why does everyone have to do EVERYTHING themselves??? Music is best when it is a collaborative process and not done in a vacuum. Why is that soooooooooooooo hard for people to comprehend? and please don't tell me it is "to keep the same artistic vision throughout the process" or "I can do mastering better than the pros with my pirated copy of ProTools"... it is mainly BS and this type of rhetoric usually comes from people too cheap to spring for pro mastering IMHO

[Razik]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

My suggestions:
First - don't look at the spectrum scope. It has absolutely nothing to do with the sound - and what you see on other mixes likely has no relevance to creating good sounding results with your own. Just listen instead using the cleanest, most accurate and fullest range monitors you can get.

Next - for metalcore I generally don't use compressors (especially multiband ones) if I can get away with it. The main reason to use a compressor is if there are elements of the mix that poke out or come "unglued" from the body of the mix, or that occasionally sound overly sharp or brittle. However when you apply comps across the entire mix, unless set very carefully, you can also risk softening up percussive elements and losing some of the punch and snap that was in the mix. So - if you still have access to the mix you might want to just compress only at the track level more as needed. Also if you are losing kicks from compression you can use a longer attack (i.e. somewhere in the 30ms zone) and use a high pass on the side chain so that the compression doesn't clamp down on the kicks as much. Again - your mix might not need compression on the stereo-bus - so try leaving it off and seeing if you like this better.

Next - unless you are mastering for long vinyl record sides there is no reason to apply a 30Hz high pass filter by default. The only reason to do it is if there is unwanted unmusical rumble or too much information down there. There are a few elements to a kick - the under the floor part (which can definitely exist that far down) and the thump you in the chest part (which is more somewhre in the 60Hz - 120Hz are), and the click on the beater part (which is often somewhere in the mids). So - again - only apply this if you actually need to, by listening with a full range system and seeing whether you have too much down there. Go back to your original mix and work to define this better to where you want it. Sometime boosting with narrow Q's at some point can help pull it out of a mix, and sometimes is necessary to counter the effects of things like limiters or compressors reducing the presence of the kick.

I'd say the same thing for the harmonic exciter - there's no reason to put this on by default - as generally these will add high end but at the cost of making the overall sound edgier, thinner and more brittle. You might want to instead go back to the original mix and eq on a track by track basis to add brightness or upper mids to elements that might need this if you are feeling you always want to add a harmonic exciter. Sometimes cutting low mids or lows a little out of some elements allows the other elements to have more space to exist in - but with metalcore generally really thick guitars is a necessity - so you really have to be careful with cutting on these as sometimes this will take away the body or "balls" of these that is something that you generally will want to leave untouched or even enhanced.

As far as limiting - there are indeed a number of limiter plugins that will eat up your kicks or mush the sound a good bit - so you need to demo a few to find out which ones will work best for you. One freeware one that does clipping more than limiting - so it tends to not to kill punch and snap as much (but at the cost of introducing a bit of distortion you need to watch out for) - is the GVST GClip - maybe try this - maybe in combination with your usual limiter not dialed so strongly in - GVST - GClip

Generally the first thing I do before anything else is just apply whatever I am using to bring up the average level to where I want it - so put on the limiter or clipper first - as this can change the sound a bit - so I make additional eq and compression processing decisions only after I hear what the effect of this will be.

Hope that helps.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Razik's Mastering

[bgrotto]

The problem likely lies with your mix. Try to find greater separation in the low end, particularly between the kick and bass guitar. This will allow you to turn the kick down (since there will be less mud in the low end masking it), which will let you pull the threshold on the limiter down further, thus giving you higher level overall before the kick starts to disappear on you.

You could also try experimenting with mix buss compression, and work the kick into it to create a subtle "pump" everytime the kick hits. This way, even with the limiter forcing the perceived level of the kick down, the mix will move in sympathy with and emphasize the bass drum pattern.

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

You could also try experimenting with mix buss compression, and work the kick into it to create a subtle "pump" everytime the kick hits. This way, even with the limiter forcing the perceived level of the kick down, the mix will move in sympathy with and emphasize the bass drum pattern.

Although it should be noted that sometimes particular to the metalcore genre kick patterns can be so rapid fire and continuous that this type of treatment often is not as effective for the genre as it would be in things like techno or hip-hop where kicks are much more occasional.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

Although it should be noted that sometimes particular to the metalcore genre kick patterns can be so rapid fire and continuous that this type of treatment often is not as effective for the genre as it would be in things like techno or hip-hop where kicks are much more occasional.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Great point.

[Metal_Core96]

Thanks for the reply's guys! Precious words, oh and, very nice points there cellotron! Thanks everyone!

If anyone would have some more advice it would be appreciated!

Example, is my listening enviroment bad? I usually work in a living room, sort of. There's a big wooden table at the center, a tv, and some wooden furniture on the walls

[Cheebs Goat]

Here's the thing about mastering your own mix in the same room and on the same equipment you used for the mix:

Why would you do it? Ever?



You have the multitracks sitting right there in front of you. Any processing you might want to do on a 2-channel stereo song can surely be done better on the multi-tracks, right? You don't HAVE to EQ the entire stereo mix if the multi's are still present...but still can if you want. You don't HAVE to compress the entire stereo mix...but you still can if you want.

Even loudenation works better. Crush crush crush crush...oops the kick is gone. If you are working with the multi-tracks, you can slide that kick right back up.

The only thing you can't do is dither. So do that later.



In my mind the choices are:
Send the finished mix to a different person with different stuff in a different room who will bring something different than what you can bring yourself.

or

Do the whole thing yourself in the area where you have the most control: Working with the multi-tracks.


Handcuffing yourself with a stereo bounce before tweaking on the same equipment you could be using without the handicap just doesn't make any sense to me.


That said I would certainly print a stereo mix before starting all of that messing around. Then you would have a safety net, especially if working analog.