Phase rotation

[wado1942]

This is more of a mixing question, but I was just wondering if anybody has tried using like 90 degrees of wide-band phase rotation to make waveforms more symmetrical, particularly drums, horns & voice. I think that would take some of the pressure of limiters/clippers in the mastering stage since the peaks of so many instruments can lean heavily towards the positive.

[Laarsø]

Polarity gets switched accidentally and deliberately. However, there is truly only one right polarity and that is the one which makes the treble higher and the bass tighter. This is the natural acoustics we have come to know and love over the millennia.

People are somehow designed to be sensitive to what is known as the Wood Effect. To rotate the phase of subgroups so as to normalize the waveform symmetry would make the signal able to be a tiny bit hotter, but perhaps not as "loud," and somewhat worse or dull sounding. If this is what you had in mind, you will actually be in good company. Try Glyn Johns' work, for example.

(;




Cheersø,
Laarsø

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by Laarsø

Polarity gets switched accidentally and deliberately. However, there is truly only one right polarity and that is the one which makes the treble higher and the bass tighter. This is the natural acoustics we have come to know and love over the millennia.

This isn't what he's talking about. Polarity is flipping the entire thing upside down. Phase-rotation is an intentional distortion to the waveform in an attempt to make asymmetric signals more symmetrical. It's done in AM radio broadcast for transmitter efficiency reasons. Never for aesthetic ones.

There are boxes that will add a 90 degree shift (I think even the Finalizer has it), but the intent was to make a better mono from sources that have bad cancellation.

On that most fascinating of topics, polarity, in 99% of all pop recordings there is no 'correct' polarity to preserve. So, flip the switch, marvel at how little the sound changes, and leave it in the direction that has better mids.

Where is Clark Johnsen when we need him most? He was in the top 10 entertaining posters. Wrong, but entertaining nonetheless.


DC

[Sempoo]

Voxengo PHA-979 user here. It really helps. But you can do even better job with Izotope RX and its channel ops function.

[acorneau]

You can get PhaseBug and rotate the phase to what ever degree you like:

BetabugsAudio :::plug-in development turned inside out:::

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by Laarsø

Polarity gets switched accidentally and deliberately. However, there is truly only one right polarity and that is the one which makes the treble higher and the bass tighter. This is the natural acoustics we have come to know and love over the millennia.

What about speakers that has one or more drivers flipped? :-)


/Peter

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by Audiop

What about speakers that has one or more drivers flipped? :-)

Absolute Polarity in Mastering


DC

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by dcollins

Absolute Polarity in Mastering


DC

Dear god no...

[Lagerfeldt]

Originally Posted by dcollins

Absolute Polarity in Mastering

Epic thread.

[Denis Goekdag]

Originally Posted by Sempoo

But you can do even better job with Izotope RX and its channel ops function.

Yeah, that function is excellent. Sometimes gives you up to 5dB more headroom without affecting the sonics too much. It can, however, sound horrible in certain cases...

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by dcollins

Absolute Polarity in Mastering


DC

Hi Dave, did you think of something specific?


/Peter

[clarkjohnsen]

Originally Posted by dcollins

On that most fascinating of topics, polarity, in 99% of all pop recordings there is no 'correct' polarity to preserve. So, flip the switch, marvel at how little the sound changes, and leave it in the direction that has better mids.

That is probably right... alas. One must turn to classical and jazz for an appreciation of what correct polarity offers, although even then... well...

Where is Clark Johnsen when we need him most? He was in the top 10 entertaining posters. Wrong, but entertaining nonetheless.

Reporting for duty, sir! And thank you, I do try to be readable. At the same time I try to be right, and on the topic of Absolute Polarity I speak, if I may say, ex cathedra.

clark

[tpad]

The "phase rotators" are actually 4 allpass networks connected in series. Originally patented by Leonard Kahn in his Symmetripeak processor for AM radio transmission. The purpose of the phase shifting is to reduce the peak to average ratio of speech signals to allow higer average modulation levels with less peak limiting.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Or read this

6moons.com - industry features: Polarity and phase

[philip]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

Or read this

6moons.com - industry features: Polarity and phase

Or get i pair of speakers without group delay and forget about it.

[clarkjohnsen]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

Or read this

6moons.com - industry features: Polarity and phase

Thank you! I had not seen that essay before, and the author has it exactly correct. Although... I might wish he had acknowledged my own work, The Wood Effect, from which he lifted most of his observations. Oh well. Had I known about it in 2009, in that huge dustup here, I might have been able to make more people understand the elusive nature of polarity.

[clarkjohnsen]

Originally Posted by philip

Or get i pair of speakers without group delay and forget about it.

With all due respect, that would be only a start, albeit a good one. Trouble is, the better, the more coherent, a loudspeaker is, the more it betrays incorrect polarity. Truly if you want to forget about it, buy a phase-incoherent unit.