EBU counterattack on loudness war

[Petrus]

EBU is trying to make and implement a new level metering system, where the average level, not only peak value, is standardized. The aim is to bring dynamics back to radio and tv by forcing the average level down to make room for peaks

http://tech.ebu.ch/docs/other/ebu_ec...udness_v03.pdf

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by Petrus

EBU is trying to make and implement a new level metering system, where the average level, not only peak value, is standardized. The aim is to bring dynamics back to radio and tv by forcing the average level down to make room for peaks

http://tech.ebu.ch/docs/other/ebu_ec...udness_v03.pdf

And thus began the brightness wars.

[daez]

Hey it's a start.

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by daez

Hey it's a start.

Totally agree! I was just being an ass. Plus, the negative effects of overly bright mixes are much more readily apparent than that of overcompressed.

I think quietness wars would be more appropriate.
He who's dead wins.

[bmanic]

Originally Posted by Storyville

And thus began the brightness wars.

LOL! That's exactly what I said to a client today. Once we get devices which force everybody at the same level, we'll start to hear even brighter, more edgy mixes and masters. Oh the horror!

[Peaks]

Just because they are trying to make it a standard doesn't mean it will work. I hope it succeeds but best alternative to the loudness wars is to simply have 2/3 versions available to the public. A hot/destroyed version for instances where it doesn't matter (cheap earbuds, very loud/busy places, those who don't know any better), a mid range version (for those who have better equipment yet not so great that every fine detail and artifact of maximzing the sound is obvious, for those "realistic/reasonable" audiophiles), and a truly hifi version (only sonic quality is the priority, even if the tracks are really quiet. For the most demanding consumer). Then labels/artists can release whatever the hell they want and the consumers aren't tied to that being the only choice.

Originally Posted by Storyville

Totally agree! I was just being an ass. Plus, the negative effects of overly bright mixes are much more readily apparent than that of overcompressed.

Who knows what technology would exist if we really had brightness wars? I ultimately see the same thing happening. Regardless of it's hardware or plugins, they'd all say the same thing loudness maximizer say: "We are the best! 1000% transparent! Ground breaking algorithms! It sounds just like hardware!" when we all know that even if they make good on their claims (not as good as they exaggerate though), the harder you push it, the less true those claims become. Popular music would be premastered in advance in ways of composition that show off increased brightness or pull tricks so that all the brightness isn't so glaringly obvious, even though it's there. So really, I bet nothing would change. But what do I know!? Sometime issues are so complicated, you can't even begin to hypothesize anything.

[IIIrd]

I'm sure the industry will take note and do as it'd told.

Brightness wars...LOL

[Petrus]

Originally Posted by Peaks

Just because they are trying to make it a standard doesn't mean it will work.

It would work if an average loudness standard is included in the radio station license requirements across Europe and North America. This can be automatically monitored, and if a station keeps sending a signal where RMS level is too close to 0 dBFS for too long (different levels for different length time windows) it would loose its license. Record companies would start making songs which fulfill these requirements and the radio stations could not compress them anymore. Those disks which are made the way they are made now would have to played something like at 6-10 dB lower level without peaks. They would sound really bad compared to the "new age" more dynamic songs we are hoping for and EBU is trying to make happen.

[huub]

This will only be for television, not radio... Radio will continue to hurt our ears

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by Petrus

EBU is trying to make and implement a new level metering system, where the average level, not only peak value, is standardized. The aim is to bring dynamics back to radio and tv by forcing the average level down to make room for peaks

http://tech.ebu.ch/docs/other/ebu_ec...udness_v03.pdf

Just in time for radio and televisions complete irrelevance as music delivery systems.

Better late than never I guess.

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by Storyville

And thus began the brightness wars.

I was experiencing that the other day when I was taking my kid to the fair... At first I didn't understand why so many ride operators' speaker systems were so unbelievably sharp; I'm talking treble at something like 20-30 dB above linear; it hurt so bad that I couldn't even go near them.

Then I realized that they must be doing it to get around the SPL restrictions on the fairground. Want to attract attention of the crowd passing by without increasing SPL -> crank the highs. The unfortunate side effect is that they exclude all mastering engineers from their rides and that all their employees WILL go deaf.

[Greg Reierson]

PA systems (especially old horn systems) are build that way for efficiency. They can get loud enough to be heard over a crowd in a narrow frequency band with just a few watts of power. Full range PA systems are also much more efficient than home or studio speakers for the same reason. Projection and efficiency rather than smooth response.

Or, maybe they were jacking up the top! Did you measure the SPL?


GR

[nucelar]

Originally Posted by Petrus

EBU is trying to make and implement a new level metering system, where the average level, not only peak value, is standardized. The aim is to bring dynamics back to radio and tv by forcing the average level down to make room for peaks

http://tech.ebu.ch/docs/other/ebu_ec...udness_v03.pdf

This has been around for quite some time. This Recommendation R128 is has been or is being implemented in several Broadcast stations around Europe with great success. In January 2012 many more Broadcasters will switch to Loudness normalisation. It is a reality, not "trying". The level metering standard is fully defined, implemented and agreed with ITU (internationlally)
Several countries (including mine) are considering or in the process of making it a law for Broadcast.
Cheers

[reynaud]

Originally Posted by nucelar

It is a reality, not "trying"...Several countries (including mine) are considering or in the process of making it a law for Broadcast.

Agreed.

France is apparently the first country to make EBU R128 part of its audiovisual legislation.

Production and distribution equipment used in France will now have to respect EBU R128. Broadcasters must adhere to the standard and all material provided by production companies will also have to comply (live programmes by June 2012 and all programmes by the end of 2012).

cheers,
Reynaud

[Peaks]

Originally Posted by nucelar

It is a reality, not "trying".

What I mean by trying is even if the whole world enforces it, CDs will be still be as loud as earsplitting ****.

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by Greg Reierson

PA systems (especially old horn systems) are build that way for efficiency. They can get loud enough to be heard over a crowd in a narrow frequency band with just a few watts of power. Full range PA systems are also much more efficient than home or studio speakers for the same reason. Projection and efficiency rather than smooth response.

Or, maybe they were jacking up the top! Did you measure the SPL?


GR

Oh, the high boost i'm referring to is a LOT more than some horn resonance or lows missing due to long throw system design. The total SPL was absolutely fine, but the highs were literally deafening.

[arf]

Originally Posted by Masterer

Just in time for radio and televisions complete irrelevance as music delivery systems.

Better late than never I guess.

The major streaming and cloud services are implementing it and Apple is about to as well.

[arf]

Originally Posted by Storyville

And thus began the brightness wars.

There's no doubt that engineers will find ways to trick the algorithm somewhat, but the end user has the option to turn the replay gain (volume normalization) off which would likely be a disincentive to running too much wonky EQ just to fool the meter. (Turning the replay gain off will also engage a limiter, a far less attractive option than a simple level setting that does not change the sound.)

Right now we have peak normalization across all recorded media which means that records and ads run at way hotter levels than TV shows which run at way hotter levels than movies, etc. So it amounts to a problem for media outlets as well as end listeners. With peak normalization we have tons of "footroom" - 80dB of dynamic range BELOW the program that never gets used. Loudness normalization turns that foot room into headroom where it can actually be put to good use. The choice on how much to compress or limit a track then becomes more about what sound a producer wants rather than what target level has to be hit.

[arf]

Originally Posted by Storyville

And thus began the brightness wars.

A lot of research has gone into making the LUFS "loudness" measurement relate to auditory perception so presumably that sort of thing will be self-defeating. The latest algorithm is said to be accurate to within .8 dB of what a trained engineer would do in matching loudness across a wide range of programs by ear. In fact, it is said to do better at matching loudness than a skilled engineer at the end of a work day.

[Paul Gold]

Everything I've seen and read about it leads me to believe it will work.

[Cheebs Goat]

The brightess wars would be a step up. At least it is possible to undo brightness with EQ.

[polybonk]

Originally Posted by arf

The major streaming and cloud services are implementing it and Apple is about to as well.

What is Apple about to implement it in? Itunes?

"Compliance with EBU R 128 means working with a target loudness of -23 LUFS"

The peak levels under this measurement are quieter that most mixes I receive. I wonder how clients will feel about me turning down their tracks.

Considering 24bit audio is heading towards the norm I actually like the Idea. It would mean mastering could go back to being about tonal and harmonic balance. The art of making a track sound like a finished work. A lot of current limiters and clipping units etc would be redundant as well.

[huub]

A "traditionally" limited mix would have to be turned down by a dB or 12 to 18 to comply to R128

An Ipod does not have enough juice on the headphone output to make that level audible I think..

Oh, and about "brightness wars" : Making a mix brighter also makes it louder in R128 metering..

[polybonk]

If it becomes law across the EU then a lot of mixes will require 2 masters. A normal one for CD etc and a quiet one for radio.

[huub]

Radio will not have to comply to R128, only television.

[polybonk]

So you will still need separate masters for music videos in France etc then.

[arf]

Originally Posted by polybonk

What is Apple about to implement it in? Itunes?

"Compliance with EBU R 128 means working with a target loudness of -23 LUFS"

The peak levels under this measurement are quieter that most mixes I receive. I wonder how clients will feel about me turning down their tracks.

Considering 24bit audio is heading towards the norm I actually like the Idea. It would mean mastering could go back to being about tonal and harmonic balance. The art of making a track sound like a finished work. A lot of current limiters and clipping units etc would be redundant as well.

iTunes sound check currently targets -16 LUFS (approx.) but I understand that changes are in the works.

[arf]

Originally Posted by huub

A "traditionally" limited mix would have to be turned down by a dB or 12 to 18 to comply to R128

An Ipod does not have enough juice on the headphone output to make that level audible I think..

Oh, and about "brightness wars" : Making a mix brighter also makes it louder in R128 metering..

iPods in Europe are 15dB lower output than in the US. There is actually plenty of juice available in the newer iPods. I understand that there will be a warning displayed from newer iPods when the level is raised to the point that hearing damage may occur.

[oldeanalogueguy]

Originally Posted by Cheebs Goat

The brightess wars would be a step up. At least it is possible to undo brightness with EQ.

er........
um...........

movies - no volume / no eq control
tv - no real time volume / no eq control
radio - no real time volume / no eq control
cds - no real time volume / no eq control

tv and cd could have eq if you play through a separate amp but who wants to buy gear to eq everything that makes sound

there should be (and i thought it was almost here)
a perceived loudness standard that would handle the brightness issue as well as the loudness war problem