mastering for myspace?

[aetucker1]

i heard somewhere that people were starting to master for audio websites like myspace and the like. this isn't in replacement of their normal masters, just an added bonus if you wanna put it online. what are they doing that is making the mixes not sound like crap on myspace....i thought heard something about mastering to -9db?

allen

[valverec]

I'd love to know too. Everything I've heard on Myspace sounds like complete ass though. So I'd like to hear something that doesn't sound like complete ass for once.

If anyone has any idea how to get the most out of the data compression they are using, I'd love to know.

[MASSIVE Master]

MySpace sounds like crap because (like the old MP3.com) they're recompressing your compressed files. There's no special mastering trickery to correct it. SoundClick, MySpace, others - You're at the mercy of their streaming & goofy players.

[Gravity8058]

I think this is a good question. Has anyone taken the time to master the same song, turn it into an mp3 and uploading it onto MySpace, and then tweaking the mastering, reposting it..... until it sounded best? I wonder if either lower volume (like mentioned above) or shelving down the low freq's might help it traslate better???

[John Suitcase]

Well, I tried a few things, but I can't say any sound very good. The best seems to be 192kbs normalized to -15db, although it's a lot quieter. It's a recording of my band, which I did myself. Myspace seems to just wreak havoc with the high end, perhaps filtering everything over about 8k would help...

Here are the ones I tried:

128 kbs @ -10db
160 kbs @-10
192 kbs @-10
192 kbs @-15

I'll try some other combos after myspace stops having problems. Here's my test profile:
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...endid=68413361

[John Suitcase]

I also emailed limlight networks, the provider of myspace streams, and here's what they wrote back:

"I don't know that we can assist you that much, as we dont actually encode the audio that's streamed over our service. Personally I know that VBR is a much better choice than CBR. The files will be the same size, and in many cases smaller. It will attribute more frames to the sections of the audio that need it most and not waste your space on the gentler ones. For streaming I think 192 is quite large, and is generally accepted as the closest you can get to true audio, while it is hard to hear the difference between 128 and 196 without good volume, great equipment and quite and ear. I can also attribute to the fact that many "high resolution" streams run at 96 or 128kbs though, while also offering 24/32 for lower bandwidth users. I'm not familiar with headroom and I don't know of any problem frequencies that preffered encoders such as lame would not identify with. Hopefuly this has been a bit of help."

Nothing terribly useful, far as I can tell...

[aetucker1]

ya, this is pretty odd stuff...i didn't ever really think about the encoding the encoded thing. the thing that boggles me is that i have heard some pretty good stuff on myspace. they are mostly of really big bands that have their new albums up for preview, so i wonder if they got something special from myspace to do that....the foo fighters come to mind....when they had thier album up for preview, it sounded really good in comparison to the other stuff on myspace. the thing that really bothers me the most about the streaming from myspace is the frequency of really high stuff that gets garbled...mostly the hi-hat. it sounds completly like crap and drives me bonkers.

[carlsaff]

Although I'm on myspace, I've never uploaded anything, so I'm a bit in the dark about this aspect of the site (altho it's quite clear that most of what's up there sounds awful).

Can you upload files at any bitrate? If so, upload at the highest possible bitrate. Re-encoding a 320Kbps MP3 will sound a lot better than re-encoding a 128kbps MP3.

Of course, different MP3 codecs sound quite different, and who knows what they're using. Too bad you can't specify the LAME codec... it's easily the best.

[theblue1]

[UPDATE: The post below was written with OUT-OF-DATE information and is NO LONGER TRUE. I'm very sorry for any confusion caused. For more info, see my post below.]

Originally Posted by MASSIVE Master

MySpace sounds like crap because (like the old MP3.com) they're recompressing your compressed files. There's no special mastering trickery to correct it. SoundClick, MySpace, others - You're at the mercy of their streaming & goofy players.

Actually, the old Mp3.com did different things at different times. At first their streams were all Real Audio (if I recall correctly). Soon they ditched that and moved to streaming mp3s. They absolutely DID further compress your 128 mp3 uploads for lo fi streaming -- but -- far as I know -- the downloadable/streaming 128 mp3s remained intact except for Mp3.com inserting their own tags into them (which was why they insisted that you NOT tag your own files before uploading).


I'm not sure precisely what MySpace is doing with files one uploads. Obviously, they are played throught he Flash player. But Flash has had the ability to accept Mp3s in their native format for a number of years. There's no requirement (in Flash) to put them in another format. Now, whether or not MySpace compresses them down, or not, I don't know.


But I DO KNOW one thing: unless they've changed the Submission Agreement there you are giving away a perpetual license to do ALMOST ANYTHING with your music to MySpace and all their "trade partners" -- ie, any damn one they want. They can use them for advertising, they can put them on compilation disks and sell them without returning any money to you, they can chop them up in little pieces and make something new out of them. Just about anything.

And ther IS NO TERMINATION CLAUSE. Once yo give that non-ex license to them, they've got it forever. Sure, it's non-exclusive... but when your cool little instrumental ditty shows up as the new theme for the O'Reilly Hour or somesuch, I'm thinking you're gonna be bummed.

[KurtR]

Originally Posted by theblue1

But I DO KNOW one thing: unless they've changed the Submission Agreement there you are giving away a perpetual license to do ALMOST ANYTHING with your music to MySpace and all their "trade partners" -- ie, any damn one they want. They can use them for advertising, they can put them on compilation disks and sell them without returning any money to you, they can chop them up in little pieces and make something new out of them. Just about anything.

And ther IS NO TERMINATION CLAUSE. Once yo give that non-ex license to them, they've got it forever. Sure, it's non-exclusive... but when your cool little instrumental ditty shows up as the new theme for the O'Reilly Hour or somesuch, I'm thinking you're gonna be bummed.

Are you sure they can use anybodys music they upload? I wonder how that works with the big record companies.

Don't forget who owns Myspace too. http://www.newscorp.com/

[jdg]

http://collect.myspace.com/misc/term...62535025284367

still looks tru.

note: thier backup copies will only be mp3 quality.. but still ...

also, i don't know how enforcable this "click through" contract is.. as EULA for software have yet to stand up well in court.

[John Suitcase]

Here's the licensing agreement from myspace:

http://collect.myspace.com/misc/terms.html

Now, it does basically give them free license to do all sorts of nutty things to your music, but their service basically requires them to ask for those rights. If you're familiar with copyright law and the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, you'd know that most of what they do would be illegal without a comprehensive agreement. In fact, posting recordings of bands we've worked with on this forum is illegal, unless you've gotten a signed waiver from the band (or you are the band.) Verbal permission isn't enough. And of course, the fact that you have permission doesn't mean that gearslutz.com has permission, or that their hosting company has permission, or that your ISP has permission, or that you (the downloader) has permission.

The laws are written in such a way right now that by reading this post, you're violating the law. I wrote this, therefore I own the copyright (no registration is necessary), and by reading it on your computer, you are in effect making a digital copy of copyrighted material.

Read Lawrence Lessig's "Free Culture" and you can get a taste of how out of control copyright law is...

[illynoise]

For myspace, the louder the better and make sure your hi end is tamed. We aren't major label yet, but you can check out Black P's. It comes through a little distorted, but yet it's loud and gets attention of many many listeners.

www.myspace.com/blackpegasus

Peace out,

BaseJase
Illynoise

[valverec]

Illynoise, when you uploaded those files, were they data compressed first, or were they raw 16 bit 44.1 files? Your stuff sounds good on there. I'd like to hear a full bodied rock song on there and see if it can sound as good. I haven't heard any rock music on there that's up to that level of quality.

[aetucker1]

Originally Posted by valverec

Illynoise, when you uploaded those files, were they data compressed first, or were they raw 16 bit 44.1 files? Your stuff sounds good on there. I'd like to hear a full bodied rock song on there and see if it can sound as good. I haven't heard any rock music on there that's up to that level of quality.

this is a band that my buddy brian recorded. check out the song embers...i actually think it sounds pretty good...but once again, pretty loud and if i know brian, the high end isn't hyped. also, it is completely unmastered. i have heard other places that myspace compresses what they stream...maybe i am wrong.
www.myspace.com/dystalis

oh ya, the phase thing in the begining is an effect...not how the guitars sound..haha.

[John Suitcase]

Originally Posted by illynoise

For myspace, the louder the better and make sure your hi end is tamed. We aren't major label yet, but you can check out Black P's. It comes through a little distorted, but yet it's loud and gets attention of many many listeners.

www.myspace.com/blackpegasus

Peace out,

BaseJase
Illynoise

Wow, the backing vocal loop on "Someday" is hilarious! I thought the Chipmunks were over!

The tracks do sound good, though, not much high hat or cymbals, which are my big problem areas.

Tons of downloads, though!

[John Suitcase]

Originally Posted by aetucker1

this is a band that my buddy brian recorded. check out the song embers...i actually think it sounds pretty good...but once again, pretty loud and if i know brian, the high end isn't hyped. also, it is completely unmastered. i have heard other places that myspace compresses what they stream...maybe i am wrong.
www.myspace.com/dystalis

oh ya, the phase thing in the begining is an effect...not how the guitars sound..haha.

Sounds ok, but the high end is still really washy and distorted. I'm thinking that over emphasizing the mids, cutting the lows and the highs and going for shear volume (perceived as well as actual) is the way to get it to sound decent.

[John Suitcase]

It does appear, on first examination, that when you download an mp3 (as opposed to listening to the streamed version), that you get the original file, as it was uploaded.

So, while cutting high nd may make for a better streamed version, it will make for a less impressive download.

Always trade-offs....

[heathen]

With a compressed audio stream over the net any clipping and other artifacts will sound much worse,oops I mean louder,lol. Could be similar to mastering especially for radio braodcast. Be conservative and it will sound fine,just dont max out the entire stream bandwidth I guess,leave a little headroom,dont go for a -9 rms around - 12-14 would be ideal as it will stream back at about -15 anyway ,no matter what you do,as referenced from my Rosetta 200 with the myspace player volume on full. All the stuff I've mixed or mastered or both which has been put on there sounds fine. About 5 songs so far,for an artist I work with. Watch excessive high end as well. As Suitcase said ,the downloads will be the same as what was uploaded,just the streaming is compressed to hell,it has to be.

Heath

[Rednose]

Originally Posted by illynoise

For myspace, the louder the better and make sure your hi end is tamed. We aren't major label yet, but you can check out Black P's. It comes through a little distorted, but yet it's loud and gets attention of many many listeners.

www.myspace.com/blackpegasus

Peace out,

BaseJase
Illynoise

Hey your Black Pegasus stuff sounds great man~
I agree the louder the better, watch out for highend.
Matt

[theblue1]

OOPS...

Good thing I properly qualified my comments with a "last time I read"...

MySpace appears to have modified the Submission Agreement to include what amounts to a termination clause!

To wit:

By displaying or publishing ("posting") any Content, messages, text, files, images, photos, video, sounds, profiles, works of authorship, or any other materials (collectively, "Content") on or through the Services, you hereby grant to MySpace.com, a non-exclusive, fully-paid and royalty-free, worldwide license (with the right to sublicense through unlimited levels of sublicensees) to use, copy, modify, adapt, translate, publicly perform, publicly display, store, reproduce, transmit, and distribute such Content on and through the Services. This license will terminate at the time you remove such Content from the Services. Notwithstanding the foregoing, a back-up or residual copy of the Content posted by you may remain on the MySpace.com servers after you have removed the Content from the Services, and MySpace.com retains the rights to those copies.

They also seem to have removed language about their trade partners as well that would have allowed them to re-assign rights.


OK... that pretty much negates my problems with the submission agreement.


I sincerely apologize for any confusion my out-of-date info may have caused!

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by jdg

http://collect.myspace.com/misc/term...62535025284367

still looks tru.

note: thier backup copies will only be mp3 quality.. but still ...

also, i don't know how enforcable this "click through" contract is.. as EULA for software have yet to stand up well in court.

I'm sorry... obviously, I really SHOULD have looked first... I had a few times but, you know how it is... you look a few times, it doesn't change, you stop looking.

Anyhow, as I read the paragraph in question, the broader license would appear to terminate with the removal but they would still reserve the right to have a backup or other archival copy somewhere. I read this as pretty much just a CYA so that they don't have to try to hunt down your little piece of every backup or archival file. Something like that is in most thorough submission agreements that I've read. I don't believe it's anything to be alarmed by.

And as I mentioned above, it appears that, overall, you're granting considerably less rights to them than under the agreement as it was in 2004 when I read it the first time. As I read this -- and again, I'm just some college dropout blathering on a bb -- I don't really have any particular concerns with it. (PLEASE correct me if I missed something! )

Again -- I'm REALLY SORRY that I confused the issue with out of date information.


____________


PS... I just posted another of my own songs to my MyS page and it SOUNDS like a conventional mp3 about 96 kbps -- but I threw a 192 kbps at them. So... looks like they do compress them down some.

[farside]

I haven't had any luck at all with Myspace ...Which sucks because thats where I'm getting alot of my business. Cymbyls always sound like they're underwater ...I do hear major label stuff that sounds good. Somebody must know what going on.

Next time I'll try louder and roll off the highend since they're going to do it anyway. The Black P stuff sounds good.

[Raggedy]

not sure what the deal is (maybe the highs were mostly rolled off already...), but my buddy's track "Diamond District" sounds more like the original than any song I've ever uploaded to Myspace...

http://www.myspace.com/tomc3

I do know that his ME likes to squash things pretty good, so maybe that's part of why the major's stuff works well on there, too. the less dynamic range, the better? (for Myspace only, of course )

[bloodstone]

Originally Posted by Gravity8058

I think this is a good question. Has anyone taken the time to master the same song, turn it into an mp3 and uploading it onto MySpace, and then tweaking the mastering, reposting it..... until it sounded best? I wonder if either lower volume (like mentioned above) or shelving down the low freq's might help it traslate better???

I've been rendering mastered mp3s and posting them on our myspace site. I definitely have been listening to them and making changes based on how it sounds through my desktop speakers! If you work at it you can get something to sound pretty decent. I find you have to master it as loud as possible for any impact.

I have definitely found you have to watch the low frequencies. Not sure I agree with the lower volume concept. I want it to jump off of the speakers when someone hits our site.

These masters are totally separate from anything I will do for our finished manufactured CD release.

[Gravity8058]

Originally Posted by bloodstone

I've been rendering mastered mp3s and posting them on our myspace site. I definitely have been listening to them and making changes based on how it sounds through my desktop speakers! If you work at it you can get something to sound pretty decent. I find you have to master it as loud as possible for any impact.

I have definitely found you have to watch the low frequencies. Not sure I agree with the lower volume concept. I want it to jump off of the speakers when someone hits our site.

These masters are totally separate from anything I will do for our finished manufactured CD release.

Cool, so to summerize: you're cranking the volume and going a little shy on the low end? Anything else you're taking into consideration thats proven effective?

[illynoise]

Originally Posted by John Suitcase

Wow, the backing vocal loop on "Someday" is hilarious! I thought the Chipmunks were over!

The tracks do sound good, though, not much high hat or cymbals, which are my big problem areas.

Tons of downloads, though!

Yeah, I actually didn't do that track "Someday" and that one isn't mastered yet, so it's a little bit lower than the rest. I notice that the high end doesn't come out that great on the loud stuff, but it does sound okay for the computer.

BaseJase
Illynoise

[EsthetiX]

Don't use their crappy player!

Put a flash mp3 player on their and upload your own music. You can see an example on my page.

www.myspace.com/f u c k myspace (without spaces or click my sig)

there are all kinds of mp3 players you can use. if you want ones where you can see the playlists and scroll through them there are those too.

[danielveres]

EsthetiX: any good link to those typ of embedded mp3 players? only drawback is you must host the files yourself i guess..

one could always keep the myspace player on the page with aditional tracks that they get to host, just don't auto start it

that phasiness on distorted guitars etc sounds wack, anybody tried that type of music in mono on myspace yet ?

[EsthetiX]

Originally Posted by danielveres

EsthetiX: any good link to those typ of embedded mp3 players? only drawback is you must host the files yourself i guess..

one could always keep the myspace player on the page with aditional tracks that they get to host, just don't auto start it

that phasiness on distorted guitars etc sounds wack, anybody tried that type of music in mono on myspace yet ?

HERE'S WHAT YOU DO: This is for the REAL PERFECTIONIST
Go to... (by the way FREE FREE FREE ALL FREE)

www.filecabin.com

or

www.filelodge.com

Host your files. Basically No real limitations. (I use these)

Now my favorite players as far as ease of use (SOO EASY) are on

http://linsdesigns.com/ and there's a few different ones to choose from.

You can figure it out from there. (If you have another flash mp3 player you want to use and know your basic xml playlists you can ulpoad the swf file and xml playlist to a host and do that) But LINSDESIGNS.com makes it easy (no need for any of that) and the players are slick and you can do this all with several mp3s on your players in less than 5 minutes.