Mastering for Hiphop

[passionmax]

How do I get my masters as loud as say Missy Elliot while keeping the low end. I know low end eats up a lot of energy causing a mix to sound quiter. How are the Hiphop records getting so loud and having all those 808 Kicks and Sub sonic frequencies. Can some one give me some tips, ex. EQ or compression.
Thanks

[illynoise]

I suspect that whatever sounds your hearing, it's not brought out in mastering. It's mixdown.

Just my thoughts.

BaseJase
Illynoise

[passionmax]

If it is mixdown, what are some tips because when I mix I get the bass big and in your face for the kick and bass but then there is to much energy when it comes to mastering. But if I lower the bass than the mix sounds like less bass. Missy Elliot tracks have hugh bottom end and supper loud. Please help

[heathen]

Parallel compression and eq with drums and bass can help ,do a search there is plenty on gearslutz about this topic,also the selected drum hits and samples have alot to do with loudness. Some sounds are just louder and fatter than others,try finding loud fat samples to begin with,then shape them accordingly.
Also when compressing stereo mixes try using gentle multiple stages of compression and make up gain,not just 1 heavy comp stage as this will do the opposite of what you are after. Also make sure your kick,snare main vox and bass are dead centre.
It sounds like you are losing definition on sounds in an attempt to increase bottom end, good converters will help increase low end definition as well. A great out board eq and comp will most likely help. An Al Smart c2 or other VCA comp is ideal for hip/hop or most other music for that matter.
Also the biggest tip is take your tracks to a good mastering engineer with years of EXPERIENCE and great gear. T Racks and the others are not real mastering.

Heath

[illynoise]

I get really good results mixing down with Logic Pro 7 than say Cubase SX or PT. But then again I used to get good mixes with my blackface ADAT and a Mackie.

A good signal is key. I always record kiks and snares loud, and then turn them down if I need to. Good kiks are hard to find.

But as far as mastering goes, I think that it's more of a tweak than a mix thing and you can't dig those kik and snare freqs from nothing. I think that most of the top ME's will be able to master a hip hop record if he/she has something to work with.

BaseJase
Illynoise

[lucey]

Originally Posted by passionmax

If it is mixdown, what are some tips because when I mix I get the bass big and in your face for the kick and bass but then there is to much energy when it comes to mastering. But if I lower the bass than the mix sounds like less bass. Missy Elliot tracks have hugh bottom end and supper loud. Please help

that's tricky to say not hearing it, and even then?

if i were me mixing for fat ass end, i'd keep the mix as clean and dynamic as possible ... and get most of the low end at mixing. i'd mix with lots of movement in the low end, no 2 buss comp, no mud in the low mids, and print to tape. then master it with limiting and/or clipping as needed, and fillout the rest of the low end then. a detailed, balanced and dynamic mix has the most potential to go anywhere IME.

it's about vision of the WHOLE process, from the outset, including the song. monitoring is another thing. most people on 2 ways at home can't hear the low end true enough to mix it right at all. the physics of sound in a room make things seem different than they are

also, many people go for mastered levels and limiting at mixing, and compare to commercial cd's db for db. you have to know each process in your head as you move along and max each step out for what it is, no more or less.



monitoring is huge ... personally, i could never mix big low end on small 2 ways.

Originally Posted by lucey

iit's about vision of the WHOLE process, from the outset, including the song. monitoring is another thing. most people on 2 ways at home can't hear the low end true enough to mix it right at all. the physics of sound in a room make things seem different than they are


monitoring is huge ... personally, i could never mix big low end on small 2 ways.

Aint that the truth. I actually wish I could start buying gear from the beginning again. I'd start with acoustics and a monitoring chain first..

It's a funny issue though because countless records have been mixed no NS10s with HUGE low ends that we all know could not be heard through the speaker but was "interpreted" instead

I'm kinda torn right now. Part of me wants to try a pair of ATCs or some Barefoots, but the other side is content with working with speakers that roll off at about the same point as NS10s. Soon as I scrounge up the dough and I'm in a familiar acoustical setting I'll test some speakers, but honestly I only use full range speakers to kinda test the low end and make sure Im not shooting myself in the foot I never mix on them even in cases where they were available (maybe it's because I only "knew" NS10s and didnt have much time for playin around experimenting on the clock)

[lucey]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

I'm kinda torn right now. Part of me wants to try a pair of ATCs or some Barefoots, but the other side is content with working with speakers that roll off at about the same point as NS10s.

Get your trapping right and try the Barefoots ... there's always some mental work but it's a much easier world. 'Both' is always good. I have Auratones for the vocal and kick/bass relationships.


(I'm mixing R+B for a national solo artist right now. Tracks from an M-box done at home, and big low end ... it's really about the artist hearing it from the get go. The tracks dont have to be great if the composition and arrangement and performance set up the low end. The 2 buss chain of Fairman EQ to 1/2" tape helps the overall patina, but it's still good coming right out of the box. I'll ask his Mgr if if I can send it to you for critique.)

Brian, I'd have to make some money before even thinking about either right now. But I know it'd be better to have and not to need than to be the other way around. Dont get me wrong I know it has to be better to be able to "hear" what's going on.

It's just that it COSTS to be able to hear at that level

Right now I check bass on my mackies which are not great, but they at least remove some of the guess work

Ultimately I want a mastering quality environment and chain

PS

(sure send the tracks on)

[wallace]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

I'm kinda torn right now. Part of me wants to try a pair of ATCs or some Barefoots, but the other side is content with working with speakers that roll off at about the same point as NS10s.

What kind of speaker cable are you using for your NS10s? For about $200 I got a pair of calbes from a hi-fi stereo store (they let me listen to 3 or 4). I'm still learning to mix, but I can hear everything so much clearer now: tighter bass, cleaner midrange and imaging. Try a few pair out for yourself.

Originally Posted by wallace

What kind of speaker cable are you using for your NS10s? For about $200 I got a pair of calbes from a hi-fi stereo store (they let me listen to 3 or 4). I'm still learning to mix, but I can hear everything so much clearer now: tighter bass, cleaner midrange and imaging. Try a few pair out for yourself.

I'll pass. Honestly I dont use my NS10s much anymore I use the emes mini owl more than anything

(Brian did you ever get one to try? I never got to use the OWL, but I aint giving up my mini owl)

[lucey]

I sent Synthax two emails on the Mini Owl ... no response

They do a good job with getting back usually so who knows?

[jdg]

synthax is at musikmesse last i checked

[TanTan]

just finished a hip-hopish , more of a trip-hop mix that is all parallel compression based, for the bass i've used Waves SC to a modded la-4 to a 737 limiter and EQ with a 1176 parallel limiting with the kiks , the kik came out dry as well , and paralleld to the drum loops comp (2 1176 stereo linked on bitish mode) , i've sent the kiks aux to an R-bass \ fast gate \ L1 for some more bass punch , i've summed the whole mix to a summing box using the Neve 1064 with the eq on 2 steps 35Hz LSF , 1 step 3.8Khz , 1 step HSF 10Khz to a Rolls 755 mixbuss comp to a stereo pultec with 3-4DB boost on 16Khz , clipping my DCS AD's just a bit and it was right there !
i've boosted anothe 0.2 db's with Wavelab and an L3 multiband threshold on -2.1 and it is loud enough (for me) and still dynamic sounding .

[patevil]

mix down is the key

i take the drums, bass and buss them pre dynamics in to a seperate channel and squash the hell out of them while keeping the original clean and tight.

it will give you alot more dynamics in the drums and alot more to work with as far as getting them up there in that all hip hop has to be really loud to be good

it is really about getting the beat as loud and clean as possible while still accomplishing to get the vox to sit above the beat

mixing is trial and error try some things if they work for you do them if not try something new

and i also prefer using logic over pt

[passionmax]

thanks for all you help. please keep the tips comming. It is very helpfull

[Al Nutrition]

First and foremost in hiphop mix the drums loud!
I often first mix the drums to fit in the other content and the lift the drums just abit too loud :D And someone allready talked about "fat". Some compressing is needed if the kick or snare sounds a bit thin.

Dont equalize away the bass frequencies of the snares and hihats!

Keep the bass drum heavy on the low end. Rather too much than too little. Hiphop isnt Rock´n Roll at least mixingwise.

As i have mastered lots of Hiphop i have to say that keep alot of bass in mixdown.
keep the kick drum abit over the basslines so that the kick won´t sink under the basslines. And listen to Hiphop before mixing. Hiphop has aesthetics of its own.

Lot of the current hiphop has the drums and vocals really loud and then the track is compressed and limited heavily without cutting the bass too much to make it louder. And a bit of pumping doesnt hurt if lots of bass is needed.

[Alex Niedt]

Originally Posted by passionmax

How do I get my masters as loud as say Missy Elliot while keeping the low end. I know low end eats up a lot of energy causing a mix to sound quiter. How are the Hiphop records getting so loud and having all those 808 Kicks and Sub sonic frequencies. Can some one give me some tips, ex. EQ or compression.
Thanks

I know this is REALLY basic, but I regularly hear people producing hip-hop overlook this, so I'm going to say it anyway...

Most of those super-hot songs with booming 808 kicks and whatever else are arranged VERY sparsely. Make sure you remove anything superfluous and avoid having anything really on top of anything else at any given time if at all possible through whatever methods you can devise. With a lot of those songs, when a kick hits, it's literally the only thing happening at that time. Same with a snare maybe...whatever. Dr. Dre, for instance, tends to keep mixes free of superfluous elements, uses hot sounds to begin with, and plays with perceived loudness everywhere. Just don't go after his actual levels, because his work is LOUD and you will destroy your own in the process. ; )

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by Alex Niedt

Most of those super-hot songs with booming 808 kicks and whatever else are arranged VERY sparsely.

You beat me to it... I was just about to stress the importance of the arrangement. The punchiest, loudest hip hop nearly always has a sparse arrangement. It's that, plus picking the right sounds. Lots of low end doesn't always get you that super-impactful thud you're looking for. A lot of that can be in the mid-bass or midrange, adding attack, punch, and definition to a big round bottom. Just pouring on the low end won't do it. If you don't make good decisions before reaching mastering, it's too late.

[Bump Music]

Originally Posted by Alex Niedt

Most of those super-hot songs with booming 808 kicks and whatever else are arranged VERY sparsely. Make sure you remove anything superfluous and avoid having anything really on top of anything else at any given time if at all possible through whatever methods you can devise. With a lot of those songs, when a kick hits, it's literally the only thing happening at that time. Same with a snare maybe...whatever.

Exactly!!!! 100% agreed.

[illynoise]

I'm working with a cat, he's selling beats to ATL's mid range artists, and this guy always brings in tracks with so much in the low end, and now that I take it out and it sounds good, he's learning how loud we can get the mixes. It's really about all of these young cats out here who know how to make beats that really don't know anything about songs and first and foremost that a VOICE is going to be on this beat that you made.

BaseJase
Illynoise

[lucey]

Originally Posted by illynoise

I'm working with a cat, he's selling beats to ATL's mid range artists, and this guy always brings in tracks with so much in the low end, and now that I take it out and it sounds good, he's learning how loud we can get the mixes. It's really about all of these young cats out here who know how to make beats that really don't know anything about songs and first and foremost that a VOICE is going to be on this beat that you made.

BaseJase
Illynoise

All of the Hip Hop/RnB I've mastered or stem mastered here was too thick in the low mids and low end... I attribute this to poor monitoring on cheap 2 ways, and mixing to compete with masters.

Yet once they hear it clean and tight, they see what mixing should be doing... hint: it's not mastering!

Originally Posted by lucey

All of the Hip Hop/RnB I've mastered or stem mastered here was too think in the low mids and low end... I attribute this to poor monitoring on cheap 2 ways, and mixing to compete with masters.

Yet once they hear it clean and tight, they see what mixing should be doing... hint: it's not mastering!

Funny thing is I never liked my mixes until I started mixing to compete with masters. Of course I turn the master'd ref down about 7db before comparing, because I know I can get level later but strength/fullness needs to be the same as a mastered mix

I look at mastering as a process of making an album sound cohesive, NOT a process that makes a song sound professional IMO it's supposed to be professional when it leaves my hands.

[illynoise]

It's all about those thingy's that are hangin on each side of your head.

BaseJase
Illynoise