Sonic Timeworks Mastering Compressor appreciation

[Bang]

[QUOTE=wagz]this is very interesting. I've always wondered about this this stuff...cuz I've use various limiters/volume maximizers, but I haven't really tried out any of these clipping plugs.

I did a search and Bang seems to like the T-racks Clipper plug....

the Gvst seems to be popular, too. It's free, so i downloaded it. I understand that they are supposed to [I]shave off[I] the top of the waveform.

QUOTE]

Thanks man. So far nothing sounds better to me then clipping an actual A/D. Doing quick software masters for mix clients, I did at one time use a combo of Timeworks, Elephant, and the T Racks Clipper. The free GClip is better then all of them. However, you can slaughter the input of a Lynx Aurora with some great results, better then the software, things remain cleaner and punchier. The RMS 755 is great btw for mastering, contact me if interested.

[hrn]

Just wanted to say hello to Fredrik and welcome to this nice place.
Hasse Rosén

[wagz]

thanks for the info, Bang.

defjamm, thanks for the link.

I will have to contact you when i'm ready to get the Rms 755.


Bang, you say clipping hardware converters is better than any of the above software. I was wondering if you...or anybody else here thinks about clipping the converters on an Rme Fireface. I doubt it can hang with the Lavry's or Prisms...,but i wonder if it would be better than some of the software listed.

BTW, I'm not trolling. I have a Fireface, but I'm not in my studio to try it right now.

[Bang]

Tom Baker mastered the single on my upcoming album and he used a Lavry Gold and really dug into it. Coming back to my studio I was weary of the aurora being able to take the same abuse, but lo and behold, it could. I would try it and see what happens. But keep in mind you need to have the mix really well balanced eq wise first or the predominant frequency will take over and distort.

[pingu]

I cant wait to try this thing.

Thanks bang.

[Absolute]

Originally Posted by defjamm

try
http://www.voxengo.com/product/elephant/

the clip mode(it has up to 4 x oversampling)

the best is the price(70$). i actually can't believe how much voxengo offers at this price(oversampling, different limiting modes, dithering, dc, metering, linking) compared to waves, who took a lot of money and wup for years but don't update their mastering plug-ins.

I didnt know that...is it any good?

[Fredrikgroth]

Originally Posted by hrn

Just wanted to say hello to Fredrik and welcome to this nice place.
Hasse Rosén

Thanks!

[defjamm]

Originally Posted by Absolute

I didnt know that...is it any good?

taste differs, so maybe the best thing would be to try out the demo and see how you like it.

i like other clippers more at the moment, because the elephant clip mode seems to be a little more gentle(but there will be a future update with option from hard clipping to soft). interesting are the high oversampling-options, regarding the reduction of artefacts.

his stuff(aleksey of voxengo) is technically sometimes more advanced than the competition(chorus/phaser with optional oversampling, eqs and compressors with optional oversampling).
he has one of the best software srcs around. the biggest problem for me are the guis, not the look but these plug-ins are really flexible so they have a lot of controls and most engineers hate that(complex controls).

[keiffer]

Originally Posted by Fredrikgroth

OK, here are the files I promised you. The clip is taken from our latest album (un-mastered version of course).

Note the pretty extreme difference of the drum transients; L2 and L3 kills the snare totally.

edit: as I state in a later post below, I've pushed these plugs a bit harder than they´re meant to be used. The purpose of this is to show how they treat the transients of (for example) the drums. One of the problems I've always had with L2 and L3 is that they change the sound of the snare A LOT, and you have to mix really strange to compensate for that behaviour. With Timeworks, you dont' have to. Snare is fine, even if you push it.

Here's your beast Original mp3 clipped by Elephant. I tried to match your level which resulted in Elephant settings of Input=+10.5db and Clip mode.

beast_Elephant

[Absolute]

Originally Posted by defjamm

. the biggest problem for me are the guis, not the look but these plug-ins are really flexible so they have a lot of controls and most engineers hate that(complex controls).

I completely agree with that. He fails to understand how we react to his interface--he knows it so well because he designs the controls and somehow expects us to not see it as confusing.

[Ecktronic]

Originally Posted by Fredrikgroth

OK, here are the files I promised you. The clip is taken from our latest album (un-mastered version of course).

Note the pretty extreme difference of the drum transients; L2 and L3 kills the snare totally.

edit: as I state in a later post below, I've pushed these plugs a bit harder than they´re meant to be used. The purpose of this is to show how they treat the transients of (for example) the drums. One of the problems I've always had with L2 and L3 is that they change the sound of the snare A LOT, and you have to mix really strange to compensate for that behaviour. With Timeworks, you dont' have to. Snare is fine, even if you push it.

THe Timeworks tracks drums are punchier than the L2 and L3, I can hear more low end in the kick drum with the Timworks compression/clipper. So it actually compresses and clips rather than just limit?

Eck

[masteringhouse]

Originally Posted by neilwight

sighs.....


i had been hoping for some enlightening discourse on why clipping ADs differ from clipping software.
maybe some inquisitive person would have asked why it was that software clipping wasnt the same as clipping an AD. perhaps we could have had that for starters that the AD prevents frequencies outwith nyquist being passed to the DAW, resulting in a filtering or softening of the negative artifacts presented. software passes them on not only imapcting anything afterwards but also the DA before going on further..

Neil,

I hear you. A while back I did performed some quick testing shredding a 1K tone via DAW and an L2 comparing the results in Spectrfoo. The alias frequencies were apparent in the DAW version but not there in the L2. I did not try the same by clipping the A/D though because I just wanted to prove something to myself software-wise.

That said, some people have told me that they like alias frequencies added to things like Metal. This is subjective opinion and is true only to the individual. It's knowing the difference on when to apply or not apply a given type of processing that's important. Distortion is a creative tool like any other.

[bugs]

Elephant 2 is about as good as it gets in my experience--love the sound--and certainly best bang for the buck by far. I like the Kjaerhus MPL-1 and the Oxford Limiter also.

[theblue1]

I was gonna wade back into this but... I don't think so, after all.


I'm a big Timeworks fan (considering I got it for, in essence, the equivalent of $33 as part of my DAW's "pro" package a few years back) -- but there is clearly some very fuzzy thinking going on in this thread from some folks.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Absolute

I completely agree with that. He fails to understand how we react to his interface--he knows it so well because he designs the controls and somehow expects us to not see it as confusing.

Yeah... heaven forfend some software developer gives you MORE CONTROL over the sound.

In fact... could someone please design a DAW with just one knob and no buttons. It could just go from "sucks" to "sublime."

[Kayo]

Originally Posted by Bang

I've been shouting out about this plugin for years now. The magic behind this plugin is that it actually is a clipper, which is why it sounds much better then Waves which is a limiter.

Precisely......
That's the actuall gist of it all.. The meat and bones, so to speak..

FD

[wshaw]

Can anyone explain why this plug doesn't appear in my Wavelab slot for limiter/dither? I'd love to use it instead of L2, but I can only use it as a plugin.

Thanks.

[aivoryuk]

Originally Posted by masteringhouse

Neil,

I hear you. A while back I did performed some quick testing shredding a 1K tone via DAW and an L2 comparing the results in Spectrfoo. The alias frequencies were apparent in the DAW version but not there in the L2. I did not try the same by clipping the A/D though because I just wanted to prove something to myself software-wise.

That said, some people have told me that they like alias frequencies added to things like Metal. This is subjective opinion and is true only to the individual. It's knowing the difference on when to apply or not apply a given type of processing that's important. Distortion is a creative tool like any other.

i've actually been doing a few test like this with different limiters and such, the timeworks compressor without any processing was contributing alais frequencies to the sound while the L2 there was not doing anything.
I'm not saying i wouldn't use it because of that because everything has its place.

the real reason i wouldn't use the timeworks is that even with a output ceiling of say -0.2/-0.3 the plugin still has a way of clipping outputs on low level gear like laptops etc whcih other limiters i've tried do not.

[Bang]

I also noticed that Timeworks would sometimes allow overs through its ceiling. I also thought it began to alter the highs a bit. So now I use GClip. This thing rocks. It doesn't have a ceiling, so you can plop an L2 after it (no threshold) with a ceiling of -.03 and get that mix nice and loud without limiting artifacts.

[defjamm]

old thread

Originally Posted by neilwight

perhaps we could have had that for starters that the AD prevents frequencies outwith nyquist being passed to the DAW, resulting in a filtering or softening of the negative artifacts presented. software passes them on not only imapcting anything afterwards but also the DA before going on further..

hm maybe i don't understand you, but with software you can use oversampling to minimize aliasing artifacts.

like here:
http://www.gvst.co.uk/gclip.htm

and it's free

[jacko]

Any thoughts what could be close to the way it works and would work under OSX Universal Binary? My closest try so far is Vintage Warmer 2.0 but in PT LE it brings long latency. What else (plugin) can simulate the AD clipping? And nicely preserve drum transients?

[jacko]

I wanna have Timeworks or GClip on OSX... please...

[defjamm]

Originally Posted by jacko

I wanna have Timeworks or GClip on OSX... please...

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/guides.html

you could try this one. it contains a "loudness maximizer" with an "intelligent" mode where you can select clipping or something less aggressive. in this mode it preserves drum transients better than normal limiters.

[beachhunt]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Yeah... heaven forfend some software developer gives you MORE CONTROL over the sound.

In fact... could someone please design a DAW with just one knob and no buttons. It could just go from "sucks" to "sublime."

I know you're being facetious, but it's not a matter of more or less control. A better GUI wouldn't affect how much control you have over the sound, just whether or not you understand how to control the sound. Comprehension is a big part of whether someone will use a product, especially a plugin.

If a developer doesn't write any GUI at all, each host provides its own default "interface", which is usually a basic list of parameters and values. Personally, I'd have an easier time using a plugin that has been thoughtfully layed out than a simple list. Could the job still get done either way? Of course.

I can't even imagine if analog gear worked that way...... "Who needs knobs and sliders and meters, just send them an open box and let them adjust parameters with screwdrivers! After all, don't they want more control?"

[jacko]

Originally Posted by defjamm

iZotope Ozone - 64-bit analog modeled mastering effects for Pro Tools, VST, MAS, Audio Unit, and DirectX audio applications

you could try this one. it contains a "loudness maximizer" with an "intelligent" mode where you can select clipping or something less aggressive. in this mode it preserves drum transients better than normal limiters.

I tried it, it doesn't work as good as Timeworks :(

[vaesion]

timeworks must have patent thier stuff because no other limiter has dynamics like it

and that things been around since vst came out

[anticipation]

Does Timeworks works under windows 7 x64 ? :D

[easysqueeze]

Timeworks does not work in Windows 7 which is the biggest heart ache I have now. I have used all Limiters for Mastering work and Timeworks in my ears and opinion, based on consistent professional results, is number 1. I am on the verge of re installing windows XP on my windows 7 machine at this point as my masters have lost that edge since I switched to windows 7.

If anyone know of how to make Timeworks work in Windows 7, please share the know how. I have tried Windows XP Mode and Virtual PC on Windows 7 to no avail :(

[Mark D.]

I remember hearing somewhere that they re-released the EQ and might do so with the compressor / limiter. There are two versions as far as I know. This and one that came bundled with earlier versions of Cakewalk Sonar. It was red colored in that and worked better I think. I used it and liked it but eventually got away from DXi effects to all VST so it gathered dust and it got uninstalled at some point.

There is a cult following for this that's on the Web. They really should re-release it as it was in it's final form, updated, to work as a VST at least in the latest Windows (maybe Mac AU too) maybe in its old classic mode, with an option for a newer alogrythm, should they want to tweak that & improve it with oversampling, and some more of the latest improvements available to it. It might do well, again.