Bob Katz's "K System" - Nuts N' Bolts

[JSt0rm]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

You have an audience that is listening at a standard fixed volume level.

We, on the other hand, need to produce recordings that can stand up under the widest imaginable number of different listening situations.

Yes I understand. I'm not saying its easy to fix. If you have a standardized digital level those other ranges can still happen via volume control.

The problem is its all been boxed in and now if a macbook on max volume doesn't sound a certain way then its over.

Bob, you know a hell of a lot more then I do about mixing music and I respect your experience. I just think there has to be a better way.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by JSt0rm

...I just think there has to be a better way.

Unfortunately people are looking for a formula that can never really exist. A mastering engineer's job is to find the very best way, i.e. trade-off for each specific recording. A calibrated monitor level is just one of many mastering techniques that dates back at least to the early 1950s if not earlier.

[JSt0rm]

Well as a consumer of music i find it annoying to have to constantly fiddle with my volume based on the decade or whim of what I'm listening too.

You guys do a great job of getting a full cd to play with itself but the moment you are shuffling playback it becomes wild.

[JeremyPaulCarrol]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

A calibrated monitor level is just one of many mastering techniques that dates back at least to the early 1950s if not earlier.

Absolutely, but surely everyone made - and in this day and age, makes - their own standard. At least the K-System attempts to make a much broader standard.

As I said previously- I don't use it, because I'm too old-fashioned to modify my own system. But what other standard is there that is widely accepted as good practice? And let's be honest, anything that becomes popular which promotes the increase of dynamic range must be a good thing, mustn't it?

J.

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

Unfortunately people are looking for a formula that can never really exist.

Yes, and this is probably why the K-system seems good to people. "I'll just set this up like so, and my work will be improved."

When you get right down to it, many ideas that been popularized (RTA's, EQ'ing by musical notes, etc.) are symptoms of the same disease: Trying to find an easy shortcut where none really exists...............


DC

[JSt0rm]

Originally Posted by dcollins

Yes, and this is probably why the K-system seems good to people. "I'll just set this up like so, and my work will be improve."

When you get right down to it, many ideas that been popularized (RTA's, EQ'ing by musical notes, etc.) are symptoms of the same disease: Trying to find an easy shortcut where none really exists...............


DC

I work against a loudness system and I dont think it in itself improves my work. Can we still go as loud as can be? sure but if you ran everything squashed at digital 0 with 85dbspl -20dbfs pink calibrated system it would sound disgusting - as it should.

There is a difference between painting a picture and drawing architectural plans. Both can be incredibly creative work but one of them requires some fine measurements.

I feel that it would do justice to all of your work to have a fine measurement as the starting point for your creative work.

Now is this soley your responsibility? No. Of course you must do what your clients desire. If a system came into place that said this is the normal listening volume for a calibrated space and that system produced consistent works of high quality that had good dynamic range and was still listenable at lower volumes I think your clients would possibly want to use this system as a framework for their artistic vision.

[needledrop]

K system would work if the entire music industry supported it.

A practical example follows. I needed to compile several thousands music tracks dating back from 1930's up to 1980's into PC's hard disc so that I was able to play tracks randomly and continuously, without needing to touch volume knob in between. I had all tracks readily available but with wildly different perceived volumes. Most tracks had been transferred from LP records and the rest were ripped from CDs. Various musical genres: pop, rock, jazz, folk, classical...

I didn't want to change dynamics on any of those tracks. Mission impossible? Not at all, when using K system (sort of) or to be more specific: using calibrated master volume position, enough headroom, a VU meter and ears.

I set VU meter in my editor to 0 VU (+4dB) = -18 (EBU Broadcast) dBFS. I listened to 60's pop songs and adjusted their volume so that during choruses their VU lingered at zero. Peaks spent most of their time in range of -9 ... -6 dBFS. Further, I adjusted my monitor attenuator to a pleasant level. And then I fixed the attenuator setting.

From that on I adjusted volumes for all remaining tracks by ear comparing to those couple of 60's tracks or already adjusted tracks and finally just relying on the playback volume being "pleasant". It was a pleasure to see that in most cases the VU settled near zero after I had made decision by ear. Peak levels varied quite a lot but luckily never clipped. During last power chords in classical symphonies the VU jumped way above zero and peaks climbed up to -3 ... -0.3 dBFS. Luckily the selected headroom was enough for classical music. Tracks ripped from CDs were originally ridiculously loud and it was somewhat more demanding to adjust their perceived volume.

What was the outcome? I got thousands of tracks of various genres which play nicely randomly without touching the volume knob. I may select to play them as background music or louder for serious listening, pretty good balance always. And as a bonus (something which I can't get from commercial CD compilations) the tracks play with their original dynamics. Original dynamics is a historical fact, I think.

In the same way music strores around the world could have sold loads of CDs which had played all types of music in comparable levels and not being overly compressed. A lost opportunity.

I wonder why K system gets so many suspective posts on this forum.

Modern CD releases are systematically 7 dB too loud.

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by needledrop

I wonder why K system gets so many suspective posts on this forum.

What you did was not the K-system, I'm sorry to say.

Setting the volume to a comfortable place then adjusting the tracks to play at the same apparent level is simply how it's done.


DC

[Colin Leonard]

Originally Posted by dcollins

What you did was not the K-system, I'm sorry to say.

Setting the volume to a comfortable place then adjusting the tracks to play at the same apparent level is simply how it's done.


DC

Yeah, you basically just adjusted everything by ear. Other than a good meter that you know you really don't need to do anything with your monitor volume because you're just comparing volume to other tracks. It's music, it's done by ear.

[Colin Leonard]

Originally Posted by JSt0rm

Well as a consumer of music i find it annoying to have to constantly fiddle with my volume based on the decade or whim of what I'm listening too.

You guys do a great job of getting a full cd to play with itself but the moment you are shuffling playback it becomes wild.

Music that all sounds the same? Music that is all the same volume since the beginning of recording? That would be boring.

[JSt0rm]

Originally Posted by Colin Leonard

Music that all sounds the same? Music that is all the same volume since the beginning of recording? That would be boring.

No, neither of those things.

[Colin Leonard]

Originally Posted by JSt0rm

Well as a consumer of music i find it annoying to have to constantly fiddle with my volume based on the decade or whim of what I'm listening too.

You guys do a great job of getting a full cd to play with itself but the moment you are shuffling playback it becomes wild.

Well when you can get all the artists releasing music to agree to create music that sounds the same at the same perceived volume let me know .

Movies are all over the place as well even with a well defined monitor level.

[JSt0rm]

Originally Posted by Colin Leonard

Well when you can get all the artists releasing music to agree to create music that sounds the same at the same perceived volume let me know .

Movies are all over the place as well even with a well defined monitor level.

The fact that movies are all over the place even with a well defined monitor level should leave you with nothing to fear. If you want it quiet you can make it quiet if you want it loud make it loud but doing some from a base starting point would be nice for the end user.

But you are right. This needs to start happening in the mix before it even gets to the mastering aspect.

Or maybe some audiophiles will get hip to this and all calibrate there listening environments and then their will be a demand for it. Dunno.

[Colin Leonard]

This is turning into more of a loudness discussion, which has nothing to do with the monitoring volume in the mastering room. IMO loudness isn't a war that can be won. The best we can do is make things sound as good as possible and make our clients happy.

[LunchboxHo]

Originally Posted by Colin Leonard

This is turning into more of a loudness discussion, which has nothing to do with the monitoring volume in the mastering room. IMO loudness isn't a war that can be won. The best we can do is make things sound as good as possible and make our clients happy.

Um, I won the loudness war last week. I'm surprised you didn't hear

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by LunchboxHo

Um, I won the loudness war last week. I'm surprised you didn't hear

What K-System calibration was used?


DC

[JSt0rm]

Originally Posted by Colin Leonard

This is turning into more of a loudness discussion, which has nothing to do with the monitoring volume in the mastering room. IMO loudness isn't a war that can be won. The best we can do is make things sound as good as possible and make our clients happy.

I think its always been about loudness. But maybe you are right, embrace it and when everything is a pancake at -.01dbfs then we will have our constant volume level. Unfortunately at the expensive of dynamics.

Just try it yourself as it only takes 5 minutes to set it up so your system is calibrated at even 79db. Run -20dbfs pink out of your monitors and use a spl meter until that -20dbfs pink read 79 dbspl THEN listen to something you just worked on.

You dont need any product to do with aside from a spl meter and signal generator.

If you have some spare time maybe even try working on something at that level just to see. I'm constantly tweaking and tinkering with things in my work. The louder the pink the quieter your overall work will be.

[LunchboxHo]

Originally Posted by dcollins

What K-System calibration was used?


DC

K-FU! Thanks for asking.

[Colin Leonard]

Originally Posted by JSt0rm

I think its always been about loudness. But maybe you are right, embrace it and when everything is a pancake at -.01dbfs then we will have our constant volume level. Unfortunately at the expensive of dynamics.

Just try it yourself as it only takes 5 minutes to set it up so your system is calibrated at even 79db. Run -20dbfs pink out of your monitors and use a spl meter until that -20dbfs pink read 79 dbspl THEN listen to something you just worked on.

You dont need any product to do with aside from a spl meter and signal generator.

If you have some spare time maybe even try working on something at that level just to see. I'm constantly tweaking and tinkering with things in my work. The louder the pink the quieter your overall work will be.

[JSt0rm]

Originally Posted by Colin Leonard

I'm not here to tell you how to do your work. I just wish there was open dialog among producers, artitsts, mixing engineers and mastering engineers about this issue.

I can tell I've offended you and that was not my intention.

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by JSt0rm

I'm not here to tell you how to do your work. I just wish there was open dialog among producers, artitsts, mixing engineers and mastering engineers about this issue.

There has been so much dialog about the K-system, it has slowed down the Internet itself.


DC