Anyone Using K-14 Metering?

[Trebor Flow]

Hi

I treid a search - but didn't really find much.

I'm about to mix a new album and was thinking of adopting K-14 metering and monitoring for the mix - I'd love to konw what people think - is this a good move or not - I read Bob's white paper and it does kinda make sense for this album as it's a Sting/groove kinda sound and vibe.

Thanks for any feedback as I've never treid this system before

Best

Trebor

[sekim]

Bob's K-System is pure genius. There are several plugs that incorporate it so you could get demos and get a taste of it:

Inspector XL
Refined Audiometrics EQ
Voxengo Elephant

...to name a few.

His monitor calibration methods are an essential part of the equation and need to be done to fully realize the benefits of the meter.

It amazes me that he actually shares this with the masses, I guess he has designs on being the first person to ever successfully "heard cats" - in otherwords, if an industry full of very independent minds ever does standardize, K-Sys will be central in accomplishing it. JMO of course...

[Trebor Flow]

I've started using K-14 as I have the RME which includes K metering and aslo UAD-1 Precisiom Limiter which also has K12, 14, 20

I downloaded his pink noise -20dbfs and set my meter at 79db then you really can sense volume and aslo when you limiting you can hear how you are making the music LOUDER if you don't move your volume knob.

I love it.

Trebor

[jdunn]

I've been using the K-20 for mixing jazz ITB. It tells me the peak-to-average ratio, but I have yet to mess with any of the monitoring setup stuff. Thanks for the info.

[Trebor Flow]

I wish I'd called this thread

"WHY DON'T YOU USE K-14 METERING AND MONITORING"

I have been using it and it seems brilliant - are there no other adopters or is this thread in the wrong forum?

Trebor

[Nordenstam]

Am using it and think it's great! Setting the physical playback level using a SPL meter was an important part of the deal.

A 1dB stepped attenuator in front of the speakers is unfortunately not rigged up now, but it will come. That'll be the last step to make the system fully K friendly. Can't be bothered to hook up a switched attenuator right now since a Lavry Black is heading this way soon.

The only thing I miss in his paper is some emphasis on oversampled peak metering. I might make illegal samples, but I'll at least know exactly how far the real signal is pushing stuff. Tracking and mixing should never exceed the max of an oversampled peak meter IMO.

BTW: the program doesn't have to have a special "K" feature to use the K system. Any VU and Peak combo can be set to any K level desired.

Andreas


PS: here's the link if anyone's wondering what this K system is all about

[Trebor Flow]

Hi Andreas

Oh great - glad to hear from another user. Yes I've used Bob's Pink noise to set 79dB on my meter (c - slow) as per his white paper.

To have an actual physical volume relate to you meter is brilliant and then when you make something louder with a compressor or limiter you can actually HEAR it get louder as your not moving your volume knob (which I do sometimes to check the mix at lower volumes) but then I return to the position for 79db K-14.

Personally - I think Bob Kats is a genuis and will now mix using his system.
and my RME multiface meters show intersample overs which is cool.

So between Charled Dye MILAR and Bob Kats I've made such progress with my mixing and mastering. Standing on the shoulders of giants certainly let's you see whats in the next valley!

Trebor

[tamasdragon]

Trebor why 79dBSPL? Are you in a small room? Or 83dBSPL was too loud for you?
Regards Tamas Dragon

[Trebor Flow]

Trebor why 79dBSPL? Are you in a small room? Or 83dBSPL was too loud for you?
Regards Tamas Dragon

I'm just following Bob Kat's method for setting up your system for K-14 - it appears to me (and I may be wrong) that 85dB is used for K-20 reference and 79dB pink noise = K-14 reference 0dB leaving 14dB of dynamic range so that hitting 0dbfs gives 93db max volume out of your monitors.

Bob ?

Anyway read his white paper and all is explained much better than I ever could in a post.

But all I can say is K-14 " bu du du du dur - I'm Luvin It"

Trebor

[max cooper]

I'm reading through the material on this right now and it makes total sense to me.

I do mostly tracking, a little mixing and zero mastering, but I want to get this happening asap.

I own Inspector XL already. I use a Rosetta 800 and am using a no-so-elegant monitor attenuation 'system'. I've been set on the Coleman M3PH but the budget just hasn't been there so far.

Does anyone know of a way I can temporarily get proper stepped attenuation in the interim?

Also, I'm using one of those Radshack dB meters, not high end for sure. Think it'll get me in the ballpark?

Is there a decent measurement mic I can use that doesn't cost a fortune?

Or am I "so close but yet so far"?

Thx!
Max

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Trebor Flow

I'm just following Bob Kat's method for setting up your system for K-14 - it appears to me (and I may be wrong) that 85dB is used for K-20 reference and 79dB pink noise = K-14 reference 0dB leaving 14dB of dynamic range so that hitting 0dbfs gives 93db max volume out of your monitors.

Bob ?

Anyway read his white paper and all is explained much better than I ever could in a post.

But all I can say is K-14 " bu du du du dur - I'm Luvin It"

Trebor

I'm very excited to hear so many people who understand the system and realize the importance of the monitor calibration as well as the metering.

To set the record straight, the calibration point is 83 dBFS C weighted, slow, ONE speaker at a time. The test signal is -20 dBFS RMS. This sets up the 0 dB point of the monitor, but that point will be VERY VERY VERY loud for all but some classical music recordings, dynamic home theatre, and some audiophile records.

You will have to attenuate and somewhere between -6 and -8 dB on the monitor controller will correspond with approximately a K-14 for many types of pop music.

But let me tell you a secret, PRESET your monitor gain to 0 dB (on the calibrated control) before you start your mix, close your eyes (don't look at the mix meters) and then mix! You will then be using your compressors to work on the sound rather than attempting to chase some "over" you might have otherwise seen on the meter.

At that monitor gain you'll never go over (as long as you have normal hearing), and depending on how dynamic or compressed you make your mix, you may discover you NEVER hit full scale any time on the meters. That's just fine. A K-20 RMS with a peak level of -6 dB is really just a K-14 moved down by 6 dB, and still makes a perfectly good mix level for 24 bit. AS LONG AS IT SOUNDS GOOD, as long as the mix has the balls and the fullness and the "optimum amount of compression" that you are looking for.

Mixing by the monitor gain is just like they do in Hollywood, except you have an adjustable monitor gain and theirs is fixed.

For those who are working that way, I find the vast majority of "good-sounding", reasonably dynamic mixes that come into me to be somewhere around a K-14... based on monitor gain here alone, not on some nebulous interpretation of the RMS meter.

Does this guarantee a good-sounding, "musical" result? Of course not. How it sounds is the key in the end. I'm just helping to provide some tools that can be good guidance.

BK

[Trebor Flow]

Thanks Bob - that information really enhances where I'm already at with your system - and I shall add these further pearls of wisdom into my mixing method.

Plus - I've passed the system on to three friends so far - so maybe an "underground resistance" has begun in the loudness war.

Trebor.

[tamasdragon]

Yes, Trebor I thought what Bob written it's 83dBCSPL. Of course you can go down a bit in a very small place, but remeber Fletcher/Munson hearing curve. That 83/85dB C SPL is not just for choose a familiar number!
Regards Tamas Dragon

[SoundEng1]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Does this guarantee a good-sounding, "musical" result? Of course not. How it sounds is the key in the end. I'm just helping to provide some tools that can be good guidance.

BK

Thank You Bob for sharing you knodledge here on Gearslutz! K-14 it has definitely had an impact at my studio ! Thanks!

[tamasdragon]

Bob, I use it since I had an audigy system many years ago. You probably don't remeber, but we had an e-mail conversation about how to use k-system without k-meter exist in a studio. After that year the studio were built with rme interfaces, so we have and use k-system for years now. All I can say is my mixes got much better. I know I'm just a little point, but I definately think that Bob Katz's k-system should be LAW! If somebody seriously listening to new albums today, than you know I'm not joking.
Regards Tamas Dragon

[Trebor Flow]

For those who are working that way, I find the vast majority of "good-sounding", reasonably dynamic mixes that come into me to be somewhere around a K-14... based on monitor gain here alone, not on some nebulous interpretation of the RMS meter.

You know I've been pondering this over a cup of tea this morning and thinking

"Oh my G-d, what have I been doing for the last 15 years! Why have I never thought of making a relationship between actual physical volume (loudness) and my meters. It's so obvious - I feel foolish.

Now the next question - are my Mackie HR824's up to the job?

Trebor

[Nordenstam]

Originally Posted by max cooper

Does anyone know of a way I can temporarily get proper stepped attenuation in the interim?

Also, I'm using one of those Radshack dB meters, not high end for sure. Think it'll get me in the ballpark?
Is there a decent measurement mic I can use that doesn't cost a fortune?

I've put a strip of tape near the non-stepped attenuator, marking the relevant dB spots. Worked fine so far but it's definitely not as convinient as the real deal. The Lavry Black that was here for testing some weeks ago have a 1dB stepped attenuator. Felt instantly at home with the K system! (and the sound was much better than the current setup too). Looking much forward to geting it in the near future.


The radioshark meter works fine for this purpose. The actual level will probably vary a bit from person to person and room to room anyway.

If it's the digital meter, it also have a RCA for output, which makes it sort of useable as a measurement mic. It's far from accurate, but that can be compensated for by the use of a radioshark SPL meter profile, if available, in the analysis software.


Trebor wrote:
>Personally - I think Bob Kats is a genuis and will now mix using his system.
and my RME multiface meters show intersample overs which is cool.

Cheers to Bob! Not only for the K system, but also for the book and the endless words of wisdom in various forums.

The RME metering is also very good! Easily worth the price of the RME interfaces alone.


Have a splendid day everyone! =)


Andreas

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by Lupo

I've put a strip of tape near the non-stepped attenuator, marking the relevant dB spots. Worked fine so far but it's definitely not as convinient as the real deal.

This had ocurred to me, and I'm sure it'll be fine in the interim since I'm not mastering or doing hyper-critical stuff.

And thanks for the other info. Definitely closer to the ballpark now.

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by Lupo

I've put a strip of tape near the non-stepped attenuator, marking the relevant dB spots.

Now, we're getting somewhere!

http://www.collinsaudio.com/D_SYSTEM.jpg

DC

[Nordenstam]

Originally Posted by dcollins

http://www.collinsaudio.com/D_SYSTEM.jpg

Laugh! That's marvelous.

Did a quick blind and deaf A/B test against the K system. It ended in a truce with the right ear prefering one of the systems while the left ear prefered the other. The solution is obvious, using one on each channel, giving the best of both worlds at once!


>Where can i find the info for the K-14 monitor Calibration?

Check the link to BK's digido.com site in the sixth reply in this thread.


Andreas

[illynoise]

I've just started to use this in Wavelab 6, where it's implemented. Anyone else?

BaseJase
Illynoise

[drakem]

Originally Posted by tamasdragon

Trebor why 79dBSPL? Are you in a small room? Or 83dBSPL was too loud for you?
Regards Tamas Dragon

Hi. I try to be the first one here in Namibia with K-14 . Its really working fantastic!!.
The only problem I have, I cant stay at 83 dB SPL!. I can only calibrate at this level. Its to loud for me. I have to go down to 75 db, or even less.
Do you guys think, does make a big difference??
regards
d

[Billster]

I´m using the masterpinguin stuff, where K-metering is implemented. Most if not all of my clients need it LOUDER than K-12. You know the problem...

Bill

[tamasdragon]

Originally Posted by drakem

Hi. I try to be the first one here in Namibia with K-14 . Its really working fantastic!!.
The only problem I have, I cant stay at 83 dB SPL!. I can only calibrate at this level. Its to loud for me. I have to go down to 75 db, or even less.
Do you guys think, does make a big difference??
regards
d

Well, it depends on the room. If you are in a very small room, you can go down a bit from 83dBc SPL, but don't forget the famous "hearing curve". Around 80-85dB is the best, it's more biology than simple decision.
Regards Tamas Dragon

[weedmaker]

Originally Posted by Billster

I´m using the masterpinguin stuff, where K-metering is implemented. Most if not all of my clients need it LOUDER than K-12. You know the problem...

Bill

Yeah, more like K-6

[busytbp]

I´m using the K-14 for Mix & Mastering.

There´s just no Metering System wich helps more than the K to find your right Level!!!

I use it on PC (Masterpinguin) and on my Mac (InspectorXL) and it always tellin me the truth about the Mix.

Thanks Bob for makin thinks easier and to safe our Ears

[drakem]

Originally Posted by tamasdragon

Well, it depends on the room. If you are in a very small room, you can go down a bit from 83dBc SPL, but don't forget the famous "hearing curve". Around 80-85dB is the best, it's more biology than simple decision.
Regards Tamas Dragon

My room is small . I´ll try to force my ears to stay at 80db.
I´ve to expand my room in the near future I guess.
But I am a noob here so one question
Bob´s post says:
At that monitor gain you'll never go over (as long as you have normal hearing), and depending on how dynamic or compressed you make your mix, you may discover you NEVER hit full scale any time on the meters.

Does it mean that in my case, becouse i feel too loud means I can mix all softer???

Man I hope you guys understand my poor english
Regards

d

[David Robinson]

been waiting a long time. common sense has finally arrived.
am using the K system on my next CD. have been living with the mixes using this technique for quite sometime now. excellent results. Thank You Mr Katz!!!!
some details: the music is a mixture of irish and spanish themes used in a rock/modern context. so we have a choir, symphony orch., rock band, and percussion section.
these are combined in a number of ways.
to give the illusion of size or scale in different sections, i have found the K technique to be invaluable. it goes from an ac gtr/ solo vln duo, to a full ensemble of the above.
getting this to sound convincing was well nigh impossible without the calibration afforded by Bob's system.
the only hurdle now is to insure that as a 16bit cd reduction, i keep the lower dynamic to scale without entering into the lower bits too much. (around the 11th to 12th bit).
a few test masters should do the trick a that stage, i guess.
i'm going for the highest peak being around -3dbfs (16th bit) and the lower rms's at around -18 to -21dbfs. scaling dependant. (13th bit).
i am not using any comp/lim on the mix buss. that's already on the tracks if it was needed.
bob's system has made this totally possible. thanks again Mr Katz.

[jdunn]

I ordered an ATI SPL Meter for $40 so I can calibrate my monitors for K-20 next week.

[SoundEng1]

For Urban Hip Hop/Dance type of stuff do you guys recomend K-14 or K-12?