Anyone Using K-14 Metering?

[chester]

hi,

thanks ravian for your reply.

so in short i go back 6db in mastering session to get back to my reference hearinglevel?!

thanks chester

[Ravian]

Originally Posted by chester

hi,

thanks ravian for your reply.

so in short i go back 6db in mastering session to get back to my reference hearinglevel?!

thanks chester

if you wanna limit 6db's ,yep.
no thanx

[chester]

Originally Posted by Ravian

if you wanna limit 6db's ,yep.
no thanx

ok, i think i got it now! nice the L2 have an outputfader that is linkable to the limitfader! works great.

[Kip]

Hi guys im new to this K system and trying to figure some things out. im currently using a rme fireface and after loading the pink noise file. it reads -19 +/- . going onto my DAW, im working on cubase sx 2, the file has a -11.3db peak i suppose. i could not get it to read RMS. I turned on the RME digicheck that came with the unit and all is fine.The pink noise file shows a peak of 8.3 and a RMS of 0db exactly.

is there anything wrong up to this point? im getting mixed readings all over the shop.

Next im using a RA300 amp to power my NS-10s. i get a reading of 83db. but it way too loud to mix at this level. Now when you guys mentioned calibrating the monitor level or attenuating the monitor, do you mean adjusting the level on the RA300 amplifier? adjusting my RME's output? or must i use a dedicated attenuator?

At 83db its way too loud when i tried playing some tracks through my cubase. Is there a way to play it at a softer volume but still get my system calibrated?

Appreciate any help here. Sorry if im confusing you guys, trying my best to explain my situation.


Cheers,
Kip

[Ravian]

Originally Posted by Kip

Hi guys im new to this K system and trying to figure some things out. im currently using a rme fireface and after loading the pink noise file. it reads -19 +/- . going onto my DAW, im working on cubase sx 2, the file has a -11.3db peak i suppose. i could not get it to read RMS. I turned on the RME digicheck that came with the unit and all is fine.The pink noise file shows a peak of 8.3 and a RMS of 0db exactly.

is there anything wrong up to this point? im getting mixed readings all over the shop.

Next im using a RA300 amp to power my NS-10s. i get a reading of 83db. but it way too loud to mix at this level. Now when you guys mentioned calibrating the monitor level or attenuating the monitor, do you mean adjusting the level on the RA300 amplifier? adjusting my RME's output? or must i use a dedicated attenuator?

At 83db its way too loud when i tried playing some tracks through my cubase. Is there a way to play it at a softer volume but still get my system calibrated?

Appreciate any help here. Sorry if im confusing you guys, trying my best to explain my situation.


Cheers,
Kip

hi kip. i think you are missing something, the pink noise is RMS ,F the peak meters.
get a good meter that does ,peak,rms,and K-system.i use the elementalaudio XXL meter.
i use a dedicated attenuator,(but you can use your RME output attenuator and put markings on it where 0 and -6db are) that is calibradet 85 db at 0 for k-20
and 77 db at -6 for k-14.

when you are going 2 mix ,you put your k-meter on the 2buss.
put it in k-20 or k-14 and your good to go.

setup your mix so that the meters hit 0 on the k-meter.
this means that you are hearing 85 db at 0 in k-20
and 77 db at -6 in k-14.

PS:83 db spl is only one monitor, if you combine 2 monitors you get 85 db spl

[Kip]

Originally Posted by Ravian

hi kip. i think you are missing something, the pink noise is RMS ,F the peak meters.
get a good meter that does ,peak,rms,and K-system.i use the elementalaudio XXL meter.
i use a dedicated attenuator,(but you can use your RME output attenuator and put markings on it where 0 and -6db are) that is calibradet 85 db at 0 for k-20
and 77 db at -6 for k-14.

when you are going 2 mix ,you put your k-meter on the 2buss.
put it in k-20 or k-14 and your good to go.

setup your mix so that the meters hit 0 on the k-meter.
this means that you are hearing 85 db at 0 in k-20
and 77 db at -6 in k-14.

PS:83 db spl is only one monitor, if you combine 2 monitors you get 85 db spl

Thanks a million Ravian for your prompt reply. Just to clarify some stuff, so i'll insert the Inspector on track of the pink noise, play it and i should read -20 rite? I am using the RME digicheck and i've set it to K-20 and on this i should also read -20, correct me if im wrong. how bout the level in my main cubase outs?

Next im not quite sure what you mean by the RME Output attenuator, can i reduce the volume on the output of the total mix mixer? what about the output of the RA300 amplifier powering the NS10s, should i set the RME outputs at 0 and then set the outputs of the RA300 till i get 85db?

85db is way too loud , is there a way to mix at a lower level and yet attain the same calibrated results?

Many apologies for the newbie questions. Just wanna get it right but it seems so confusing

[Nordenstam]

Try the 4-bar level meter in digicheck. It reads RMS("VU") on the outer bars.

[Ravian]

Originally Posted by Kip

Thanks a million Ravian for your prompt reply. Just to clarify some stuff, so i'll insert the Inspector on track of the pink noise, play it and i should read -20 rite? I am using the RME digicheck and i've set it to K-20 and on this i should also read -20, correct me if im wrong. how bout the level in my main cubase outs?

Next im not quite sure what you mean by the RME Output attenuator, can i reduce the volume on the output of the total mix mixer? what about the output of the RA300 amplifier powering the NS10s, should i set the RME outputs at 0 and then set the outputs of the RA300 till i get 85db?

85db is way too loud , is there a way to mix at a lower level and yet attain the same calibrated results?

Many apologies for the newbie questions. Just wanna get it right but it seems so confusing

i have the pink noise on audio track 1 (fader 0db) and have the inspector on the stereo out. then i put the inspector in a metering mode that reads RMS.
it wil say -20.
now i change the metering mode on the inspector to K-20 now the meter reads 0 db.
you get it.

ok, i dont know what kind of RME you have, if you have 1 with a breakout box are only a card.
if you have the 1 with a breakout box you can use the volume knob on the RME.
if you dont have the breakoutbox RME ,you have 2 use your amp.(or buy a stepped attenuator)
Now run the pink noise, have your SPL meter in your hand where you wil be sitting when you wil be doing your mixing.
have the SPL meter in Slow,C.
now turn your amp up with only 1 monitor running. until it reaches 83 dbspl.
do the same with the other 1.(both wil sum and wil get you 85 dbspl.)
now put a mark on your amp where the pinknoise reads 83 dbspl. this is now our 0 monitor gain point.
you can do the same calibration but for K-14 but now you its 77 dbspl per monitor
and 79 dbspl combined.
now you have a new refrence point that is lower then 85 db spl (monitor gain 0 db)
and that is 79 db spl (monitor gain -6 db)

you said that 85 is 2 loud... you can mix at around 75 db spl and stil get good results.
but the fletcher-munsen curve is its best at 85db ,the human hearing is there flat(so 2 speak ) .
if you go lower you wil hear almost no bass response ,if you go higher in spl the highs wil be exadurated.
it also has 2 do with ,how big is your room.

PS: you only have to calibrate your setup 1's.
because you now you have your refrence points. 0db and -6db. on the amp(or on the stepped attenuator) good luck with your calibiration, hope this help'd

[Ravian]

o, i forgot. when you start a mix put the inspector on the stereo out K-20 = for dynamic stuff, K-14 = for les dynamic stuff.

i mix every thing on K-20 so my mixes are dynamic and the mastering engineer can do what he wants with it(limit it too )

so you push up the faders get a nice mix and look at the inspector K-20

is the meter bouncing around 0,that means that when your monitor gain is set to 0db you have a spl of 85 db.

i only look 1's at the K-20 meter if i'm around 0 and then i dont look back.
thats libarating ,with the K-system you never get any overs.

[Kip]

Thanks Ravian and lupo.

Yeah i set the system to K-14 and the meter read -6, took the SPL meter and read 77 on each monitor, 79db on both. Guess im set on K-14! Thanks again guys.

Im actually using the RME fireface 800. You're also working on the fireface lupo?

[Kip]

Originally Posted by Ravian

i have the pink noise on audio track 1 (fader 0db) and have the inspector on the stereo out. then i put the inspector in a metering mode that reads RMS.
it wil say -20.
now i change the metering mode on the inspector to K-20 now the meter reads 0 db.
you get it.

ok, i dont know what kind of RME you have, if you have 1 with a breakout box are only a card.
if you have the 1 with a breakout box you can use the volume knob on the RME.
if you dont have the breakoutbox RME ,you have 2 use your amp.(or buy a stepped attenuator)
Now run the pink noise, have your SPL meter in your hand where you wil be sitting when you wil be doing your mixing.
have the SPL meter in Slow,C.
now turn your amp up with only 1 monitor running. until it reaches 83 dbspl.
do the same with the other 1.(both wil sum and wil get you 85 dbspl.)
now put a mark on your amp where the pinknoise reads 83 dbspl. this is now our 0 monitor gain point.
you can do the same calibration but for K-14 but now you its 77 dbspl per monitor
and 79 dbspl combined.
now you have a new refrence point that is lower then 85 db spl (monitor gain 0 db)
and that is 79 db spl (monitor gain -6 db)

you said that 85 is 2 loud... you can mix at around 75 db spl and stil get good results.
but the fletcher-munsen curve is its best at 85db ,the human hearing is there flat(so 2 speak ) .
if you go lower you wil hear almost no bass response ,if you go higher in spl the highs wil be exadurated.
it also has 2 do with ,how big is your room.

PS: you only have to calibrate your setup 1's.
because you now you have your refrence points. 0db and -6db. on the amp(or on the stepped attenuator) good luck with your calibiration, hope this help'd

sorry guys.. still cant really get the calibration fixed. i followed Ravian's instructions as above and everything worked out fine. However, i hooked up a mackie mixer and had my ipod (max volume) playing the same -20dbfs pink noise file, with everything at unity on the mackie, i tracked it into my rme.
I pushed up the trim till it flutters around 0db on the mackie mixer. everythings good BUT

Readings from my setup.
Totalmix reads around -25dbfs RMS
Cubase reads around -15dbfs peak (doesnt read rms for some weird reason)
and digicheck reads -5db (Vu) peaking at 3 to 4 db.

Now im getting seriously confused here. Am i doing anything wrong anywhere? What should i do to get the meter readings right?


i tried doing it the other way
2) if i played the same -20dbfs pink noise track thru cubase. everything reads fine.
Total mix reads around -19dbfs RMS
Cubase peaks around -25dbfs
Digicheck reads 0db (Vu) and i suppose everythings okay..
BUT i tracked it back out into the mackie mixer and it reads only -10db. Shouldn't it be reading 0db? am i missing something ?

Please help anyone. Appreciate any kind response. Hope im not confusing anyone , tried my best to explain it as clearly as i can.

[miditus]

@pjarrett, it's the bob katz' k-system.

[chester]

Originally Posted by Kip

sorry guys.. still cant really get the calibration fixed. i followed Ravian's instructions as above and everything worked out fine. However, i hooked up a mackie mixer and had my ipod (max volume) playing the same -20dbfs pink noise file, with everything at unity on the mackie, i tracked it into my rme.
I pushed up the trim till it flutters around 0db on the mackie mixer. everythings good BUT

Readings from my setup.
Totalmix reads around -25dbfs RMS
Cubase reads around -15dbfs peak (doesnt read rms for some weird reason)
and digicheck reads -5db (Vu) peaking at 3 to 4 db.

Now im getting seriously confused here. Am i doing anything wrong anywhere? What should i do to get the meter readings right?


i tried doing it the other way
2) if i played the same -20dbfs pink noise track thru cubase. everything reads fine.
Total mix reads around -19dbfs RMS
Cubase peaks around -25dbfs
Digicheck reads 0db (Vu) and i suppose everythings okay..
BUT i tracked it back out into the mackie mixer and it reads only -10db. Shouldn't it be reading 0db? am i missing something ?

Please help anyone. Appreciate any kind response. Hope im not confusing anyone , tried my best to explain it as clearly as i can.

hi,

are you shure you RME out's (D/A's) are calibrated right (+4db (studio) instead of -10dbv (consumer)

[Jeraz]

Man, I bought my SPL meter yesterday, did my calibrations, changed my FF800, IXL and Samplitude Pro meters to K-14, and started listening to my work.

Good News: What fun to mix with this system! Thank you Mr. Katz! OMG...why did I wait so long to investigate!

Bad (but still good news): I will now have fun remixing almost everything I ever did.

Not surprising news: The mixes I have always liked the best are ones that, not surprisingly, are right in there near K-14 or even K-20...

Great thread...personal thanks to contributers who have added to clarity, understanding, and again to Mr. Katz!

Best,

Mark

[tiari]

Can this K-system somehow be useful when using headphones? How to calibrate headphones?

[Jeraz]

Originally Posted by tiari

Can this K-system somehow be useful when using headphones? How to calibrate headphones?

I don't know, but I did experiment, by calibrating with the SPL Meter about where my ear would be inside each of my K701s, and the SPL to my ears seems remarkably close now! Also, I normally A/B with a commercial CD Player with very good DAs that goes right into my monitoring system, direct, bypassing the computer. I am calibrating it's output with pink noise, so that I have an instant relative feel for CDs I am A/Bing with even without my RME's built in metering.

I was listening to some old stuff through the PC earlier while doing paperwork...so interesting...the DIGICheck mete on my FF800 showed an Allman Bros. tune (Melissa ) right there at K-14, and then a tune from Andy McKee...Art of Motion ...uh...who ever mastered it hit +5dB RMS at K-14, and squished Andy's beautiful guitar to an average of 5dB dynamic range, producing a 92dB average SPL at listening position with monitors calibrated for K-14!!! AHHHHHH my ears!!!! THis is a friggin' acoustic guitar recording!!! ...LOL...

[soundslikejoe]

Originally Posted by tiari

Can this K-system somehow be useful when using headphones? How to calibrate headphones?

Don't thing that's possible.

[rufus13]

Originally Posted by tiari
Can this K-system somehow be useful when using headphones? How to calibrate headphones?

Originally Posted by joenovice

Don't thing that's possible.

Of course you can use K-System with headphones.

You will need an adapter to use a sound pressure level meter for an ear (different models of headphones will need different adapters). Set reference level just like you would in a listening position for a loudspeaker.

The best "adapter" for an over-the-ear headphone might be a B&K head simulator. We might be able to get "close enough" with a little plywood/foam and a Radio Shack SPL meter for a tiny fraction of the cost of research-grade gear. Can we get within 1dB of a correct reference level with cheap tools? This would be an informative experiment for someone who has the good stuff for comparison.

Another, even more error-prone method of substitution calibration is to use a loudspeaker and spl meter to set a standard level in a room, then with one ear (in the same place as the SPL meter) adjust the same signal in a headphone ear cup to match the levels. Repeat for the other ear. This will work for some people and not others.

The levels might seem a little low over headphones, compared to what people crank cans up to, just listen carefully. Your ears will last longer at lower levels.

If you have listened much to a variety of headphones and compared to good loudspeakers, you will notice that stereo perception is way different. Headphones provide lots of channel separation and keep the angle of hearing the same regardless of head tilt/twist. A pair of $600 headphones and good headphone amplifier will always beat a pair of $600 speakers and equal amplifiers, when the room is an untreated as-found place. There's a little advantage to be had in spending more on Stax electrostatic headphones. There's lots of advantage to getting better loudspeakers and upgrading listening room acoustics.

I'm not saying one or the other (headphones/loudspeakers) is better/more important as a "standard monitor", but that a mix ought to work well in both "spaces" and K-System is transportable anywhere there are ears hearing and levels that need setting.

Cheers.

[scubarocks]

I can't believe we don't have to pay for these tips!

Bob you are a genius, I've been recording for a while but, your book and this site have completely changed the way I record, monitor, judge quality, sit in my chair, make my coffee, drive my car, even feed my cats just about everything I do.

Thank you and every one else on this site

[lukejs]

Originally Posted by mars

Hi Bob - thanks a lot for your detailed reply. I find K20 works great for me when mixing. Because I'm in a small room, I tend to run at -6 most of the time.

BTW - the book is fantastic. Despite being in the business for a long while, I really learned a lot. I also liked the PDF you wrote for TC for the Finalizer.

Yeah ! I loved that PDF too ! BTW, I answered yes to all those questions you asked after each section...hahah so I guess I'd make a good mastering engineer ! Add one to the list..... "when you sing in the shower, do you go up the scales to find the resonant frequency of the bathroom, and then hum the frequency until your wife yells..."shuuuuuuut uuuuuup " ? hahahhaha Thanks a lot Bob !!!

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by lukejs

Yeah ! I loved that PDF too ! BTW, I answered yes to all those questions you asked after each section...hahah so I guess I'd make a good mastering engineer ! Add one to the list..... "when you sing in the shower, do you go up the scales to find the resonant frequency of the bathroom, and then hum the frequency until your wife yells..."shuuuuuuut uuuuuup " ? hahahhaha Thanks a lot Bob !!!

I hummed up and down in a gazebo once and got a lot of crazy stares from passersby. My wife has stopped yelling shut up because I threaten to stop fixing her computer.

BK

[duvalle]

just found out about the k-14 metering.
so i bought a spl meter and calibrated my adam p11.

i make mostly electronic stuff so the 83db / k-20 was by far to loud for what i do.
i settled to 77db with k-14 and did a new mix.

now i am happy to say:
it really helped me to improve!

the great thing:
the FINAL mix was easy to get loud using only the l3 for a quick "home" master!
it did not loose to much bass and felt great even when loud ...
all my mixes before never sounded so open when i used the l3.

anyway, thanks for all the great input!!

[lukejs]

I wanna start using the K-14 system for monitoring...... Do I turn the volume all the way up on my Apogee mini DAC, send the -20 DbFS signal to one monitor speaker, and adjust the monitor speaker until I get -83 db on an SPL meter(at mix position) ? (or...do I turn the MIni DAC at around 75 % volume and then adjust the monitor speakers trim to get the 83 Db ? I'm wondering this because I saw something in the manuel of the Alesis Pro Linear 820 monitors I use , about getting adequate signal to noise ratio when the levels aren't up to a certain level... YOu think it makes a difference ? I'm guessing that it's probably better to have the Mini DAC turned all the way up.... How do you guys deal with the volume of your DACs and the volume trim on your monitors (and while we're at it.. the master volume from your DAW? (This volume issue always seemed trivial to me before, but now I realize how important it is for getting mixes that aren't squashed to death, and achieving more consistency ) Thanks Bob !!

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by lukejs

I wanna start using the K-14 system for monitoring...... Do I turn the volume all the way up on my Apogee mini DAC, send the -20 DbFS signal to one monitor speaker, and adjust the monitor speaker until I get -83 db on an SPL meter(at mix position) ? (or...do I turn the MIni DAC at around 75 % volume and then adjust the monitor speakers trim to get the 83 Db ? I'm wondering this because I saw something in the manuel of the Alesis Pro Linear 820 monitors I use , about getting adequate signal to noise ratio when the levels aren't up to a certain level... YOu think it makes a difference ? I'm guessing that it's probably better to have the Mini DAC turned all the way up.... How do you guys deal with the volume of your DACs and the volume trim on your monitors (and while we're at it.. the master volume from your DAW? (This volume issue always seemed trivial to me before, but now I realize how important it is for getting mixes that aren't squashed to death, and achieving more consistency ) Thanks Bob !!

Hmmmm..... Well, first of all, the system is really geared around a calibrated monitor level control marked in 1 dB increments. The CALIBRATION point of 0 dB is what we are all talking about.

So, to get there, take the -20 dBFS RMS stereo test signal which can be downloaded from digido.com. Feed it to one loudspeaker at a time (not through a panpot, but by using the mutes on one channel or the other). Set your calibrated monitor attenuator to the 0 dB point, and adjust the SPL on each speaker, one speaker at a time, precisely to 83 dB C weighted, slow. Then, K-20 material will fall approximately at the 0 dB position of the monitor control. K-14 material around -6 to -8 dB. K-12 around -8 to -10 dB on the monitor gain.

The distance of your loudspeakers from you, the transient response of the monitors, your room acoustics and your own ears' sensitivity will be variables. So you should be satisfied to be within about 2 dB of the above recommendations. You can also see how it works by visiting the Honor Roll at digido.com and seeing how the "louder" the mix or master, the lower the position you will end up placing your monitor level control.

For mastering, near a monitor gain position of -8 to -9, even 1 dB less RMS level can make a very big sonic difference. Things go to hell in a handbasket very rapidly "louder" than that, particularly for music which depends on rhythm, and the snap of the transients, which start to get lost big time.

For mixing, the object would be to try to mix with a monitor gain of, say -6 (or higher) in mind, to give the music some room to breathe, before the mastering engineer gets a hold of it. There's more to it than this, but these are the basic principles of the K-system.

Notice that I made no mention of metering in this post!

[manman]

PSP NEON LIMITER HAS k14 measuring system.
Pinquin audio meter is great for frequency analysis.

[Jeraz]

Wow, a real resurgence in old threads lately. I keep getting reminders in my inbox, and I don't mind when they are valuable ones like this.

Like Mr. Katz suggests, calibration is the most important step. Still, if after calibration, you want good meters for verification, I can add to your list of good to great meters out there.

Voxengo Elephant does K-system; RND - Roger Nichols Digital-(the old Elemental Audio) makes a very good suite of meters that does K-system, and is very reasonable price-wise; and of course, there is the killer stuff from Metric HALO...Spectrafoo. (Love my Metric HALO).

Best,

Mark

[matskull]

I didn't read the whole thread but is there a harsware K-Meter available on the market?
Is a Dorrough meter the closest thing I could get?

I'm interested to try the K system, I could use my console's VU on bus 1-2 but if I want to use the main out (to print my mix) I'll need an external meter.

[matskull]

Is this the -20dBFs pink noise?
It reads an average of -22.92 RMS in cubase's audio statistic and it peaks at -10.8 on the channel's meter.

Pink_min_20_dBFS_RMS_uncor_st_441.WAV (2.53 MB)
Digital Domain

[diamondjim]

I use K-14 all the time for my acoustic / celtic/folk etc. productions.

Wavelab supports it, as does the UAD Precision Limiter.

I also just finished calibrating my monitors using Bob's system, and decided to make a blog entry out of it, in case your interested in how I did it. Its pretty simple but there are things to watch out for.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by matskull

Is this the -20dBFs pink noise?
It reads an average of -22.92 RMS in cubase's audio statistic and it peaks at -10.8 on the channel's meter.

Pink_min_20_dBFS_RMS_uncor_st_441.WAV (2.53 MB)
Digital Domain

That's because Cubase's meter is incorrect, it doesn't follow the standard for RMS measurements in dB that has been set out by the AES and the IEC. We did talk about that in more detail in some thread or other over here....

BK