Anyone Using K-14 Metering?

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by SoundEng1

For Urban Hip Hop/Dance type of stuff do you guys recomend K-14 or K-12?

Que?

DC

[papiel]

Is there a way to calibrate the monitoring without an SPL meter?

[busytbp]

Originally Posted by SoundEng1

For Urban Hip Hop/Dance type of stuff do you guys recomend K-14 or K-12?

K14

[rufus13]

I bought a digital display RS SPL meter a few years ago (1992?) and took it to the metrology standards lab that I worked at at the time. Over my lunch break, I checked it to make sure it met the published spec's. It EASILY met the spec's in the booklet, so I checked much higher and lower in freqency/amplitude scales as well. The capsule and metering are pretty accurate down to 50Hz and up to 12KHz, and maybe wider with correction charts. Amplitude linearity was also excellent (inside meter error, then buried by noise). The filter networks were spot-on.

IMHO, there is no better deal out there on an SPL meter in this ultra-cheap price bracket. The next step up to a better brand/model gets you a better/sturdier case, but I don't know about better/more accuracy without paying for individual unit calibration.

As far as getting more useful accuracy out of a meter, obtaining a meter calibrator made by GenRad or B&K will allow you to do better relative measurments, even if the measurments and the calibrator don't have traceable calibration from a lab. I picked up a GenRad Omnical model 1986 locally a few years back and have enjoyed using it.

Sending the calibrator to a lab for calibration/certification will let you have traceablity to national standards through your spl meters (as a transfer device).

Cheers.

[jdunn]

Okay, I have a question. I've found the 83 dB point on my monitor controller (Dangerous Monitor ST). I'm mixing some pretty dynamic acoustic jazz material.

Can I turn the monitor level down to 77 dB and still use K-20, or do I have to keep the monitor level at 83 dB for K-20? So, is 77 dB just for K-14?

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by jdunn

Okay, I have a question. I've found the 83 dB point on my monitor controller (Dangerous Monitor ST). I'm mixing some pretty dynamic acoustic jazz material.

Can I turn the monitor level down to 77 dB and still use K-20, or do I have to keep the monitor level at 83 dB for K-20? So, is 77 dB just for K-14?

Hmmmm..... depends on your ear's sensitivity.

But first we have to talk about how the monitor controller is labellled. The monitor controller should not be labelled in SPL, but rather in dB relative to the 0 point. The 0 point is that 83 dB SPL you found with the -20 dBFS pink noise, one speaker playing.

So, in other words, the point you want to mark on your pot that you want to call "77 dB" should be called "-6 dB". This will help keep the language we use unambiguous and not confuse gain with level!

Now that we have that past us, it is true that the more you turn down your monitor gain the more compression you will likely apply. That's because if you are mixing dynamic music, the softer you listen on the average, the more you will feel you want to raise the soft passages.

If you are sending it for mastering, try to mix as dynamically as you feel the music should sound, leave plenty of good transients and movement, at least enough to make you happy.

Chances are, the closer you turn your monitor control position to that -6 or -8 dB mark, the more likely you are going to make a K-14 than a K-20. But this depends a lot on your personal ear's sensitivity and how close you sit to those speakers. But don't get too hung up on that. Just be aware that turning that monitor up will more likely allow you to produce a dynamic, open mix, than vice versa. Then mix, don't worry about the meters, make a great recording, and send it off for mastering.

BK

[jdunn]

Thanks kindly for the quick reply Bob. The sweet spot for my ears, in my room is the -3 dB point on the Monitor ST. So I'm listening comfortably in that 79 dB -80 dB range. Sounds can pop out without sounding too loud, or wimpy.

I'm hitting around 0 dB to 1 dB average on the K-20 meter during louder parts, but it's mostly around -3 dB. It's probably not quite as loud as it could be, but I'm mixing ITB at the moment. If I push it the sound will get worse, not better.

[ShamansDream]

Originally Posted by bob katz

...0 point is that 83 dB SPL you found with the -20 dBFS pink noise, one speaker playing... ...and how close you sit to those speakers...

Bob, are you saying that the SPL at 83db [per monitor] should be measured at the monitors rather than at the listener's ears? I know, what's a few db between friends, but I'd like to understand this well.

[jdunn]

Originally Posted by ShamansDream

Bob, are you saying that the SPL at 83db [per monitor] should be measured at the monitors rather than at the listener's ears? I know, what's a few db between friends, but I'd like to understand this well.

I'm pretty sure you're supposed to measure at your listening spot.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by jdunn

Thanks kindly for the quick reply Bob. The sweet spot for my ears, in my room is the -3 dB point on the Monitor ST. So I'm listening comfortably in that 79 dB -80 dB range. Sounds can pop out without sounding too loud, or wimpy.

I'm hitting around 0 dB to 1 dB average on the K-20 meter during louder parts, but it's mostly around -3 dB. It's probably not quite as loud as it could be, but I'm mixing ITB at the moment. If I push it the sound will get worse, not better.

Now there's a guy who's listening critically! Now I'll bet that for your acoustic jazz recording you can just close your eyes, forget about the meters, and mix. A calibrated (fixed) monitor control is liberating, not limiting!

Here's a question: Which clever person on this forum wrote, "Do you want to make a recording that people will want to turn up, or one that people will want to turn down?" This is such an evocative statement that I'd like to use it in an upcoming article and give the real person who wrote it a nice thanks and attribution.

Who was it? Thanks.

[neilwight]

Originally Posted by SoundEng1

For Urban Hip Hop/Dance type of stuff do you guys recomend K-14 or K-12?

you will probably want to be on something like K-8 for this

[mars]

I downloaded the Pink Noise tones from Bob's site as well as a band-limited 500Hz-2kHz tone from another site. However, when I put them in ProTools they read as roughly -12dBFS, not -20. What gives?

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by drakem

My room is small . I´ll try to force my ears to stay at 80db.
I´ve to expand my room in the near future I guess.
But I am a noob here so one question
Bob´s post says:
At that monitor gain you'll never go over (as long as you have normal hearing), and depending on how dynamic or compressed you make your mix, you may discover you NEVER hit full scale any time on the meters.

Does it mean that in my case, becouse i feel too loud means I can mix all softer???

Man I hope you guys understand my poor english
Regards

d

Excuse my poor communication skills! :-). What I mean by not having to look at the meters is simply that if you apply enough monitor gain you will never record with an overload. And for 24 bit recording you just don't have to deal with the meters as long as, say, the maximum peak is somewhere above -10 dBFs, but it can even be lower than that and you will not perceive a signal to noise ratio degradation. So yes, you can mix "softer" (whatever that means) with the monitor gain at K-20 (0 dB on the monitor pot) and I'll bet you dollars to donuts that your max peak will still land at -10 dBFS or above. Go for the sound, trust your ears. Let us know how it works.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by mars

I downloaded the Pink Noise tones from Bob's site as well as a band-limited 500Hz-2kHz tone from another site. However, when I put them in ProTools they read as roughly -12dBFS, not -20. What gives?

I'm curious what site has the 500-2 K signal, I'd like to measure it. Regardless, Pro Tools meters are peak reading not RMS and so you are reading the maximum peak level of the signal.

BK

[ShamansDream]

I used the Elemental Audio Inspector XL with a very slow RMS setting and tuned the pink noise to -14db on the meter. Pink noise is kind of floaty on the meter so slowing the averaging down seemed to get a steady reading. The peaks were floating way up there for K-14. Trying to zero in at K-12 would send peaks into the red easily with pink noise.

I do like the system and it does let me work with my ears more than my eyes.

to Bob for his diligent efforts in this frontier of mixing and mastering audio.

Now if only we could do this with headphones

[mars]

Originally Posted by bob katz

I'm curious what site has the 500-2 K signal, I'd like to measure it. Regardless, Pro Tools meters are peak reading not RMS and so you are reading the maximum peak level of the signal.

BK

Oops! I missed the -20dBFS *RMS* that's clearly indicated on your site. I was using Waves and Inspector XL meters (BTW, I get a reading of -24 RMS). You can get the band-limited files from BlueSky's site:

http://www.abluesky.com/p_s_gb/p5s10.html

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by SoundEng1

For Urban Hip Hop/Dance type of stuff do you guys recomend K-14 or K-12?

Mixes? or Masters?

The best-sounding hip-hop stuff that leaves here was originally mixed in a "professional" studio with a good analog console and leaving plenty of headroom and transients, not stepping on it at all. If that translates to a numeric meter recommendation, I'd say, go for a K-14 or even quieter. Then you'll be amazed how "hot" and bothered and/or dirty you can get in the mastering. However, if you want your hip hop to sound "dirty", try to mix dirty in the mix stage, or clean if that's the hip hop style you're going for. I can't make a "clean mix" sound as "dirty" as you mght like it in mastering unless we get stems, because the dirtier I try to make a full mix in a hip hop vein, it starts changing the mix so much you lose the vocal levels.

Yeah, on the mastering side, Snoop Dogg is a "K-8" and it sounds that bad (in the bad sense) for that reason. Very little bass drum definition left at all at that kind of level, but that DOES NOT MEAN you should go for that RMS level on the mix side or there is no chance in hell of making a loud and punchy and impacting master.

And then there are the usual caveats: If you go by the RMS meter, it's a good start for people looking for an early guide, but the meter will not tell you much more than that you're in the parking lot of the ballpark... to get in the ballpark you have to have good samples, good monitoring, good ears, and the right mixing sense. To hit a homerun, you may need a good mastering engineer after the mix is done. Underline "may".

BK

[just.sounds]

I'm using the Ksys for about a half year and I like it very much.
Now I use my meters mostly for detecting digital overs.
And that is the whole liberation where you can stop Watching sound!

Even without proper measuring tools you can use it.
If I hear 83db noise I find that just on the edge of nice/loud.
This is a very crude method but if train a little bit with a calibrated system.
It is easy to recall that kind of loudness later on another system (listen to it more than 2 seconds more like 30 because your ears can compensate for short loud noise).
Noise or cd's that you like to listen to get use to the monitoring system.
But nicely calibrated is of course the best!

Also a handy free tool could be the PSP vintage meter you can alter the settings to meet the K system and that is much better than Most of the moving colerfull bars in most DAW mixers.
But try it first with a test signal because it works on my platform but I can't speak of others.

This is of course based on my humble experience don't take my word for it, test it!

Greetings

[mars]

Okay - recovered from that embrassing IT'S RMS YOU FOOL!!! episode... (yes, it is -20RMS on the InspectorXL). However, once I've calibrated my monitors it's fine for mixing, but at the -6dB point, most modern pop stuff (Mariah, Usher, Coldplay, Damien Marley, Madonna, etc) feels way too loud - I'm getting 90 - 95dBSPL at my listening position. Most of this stuff hits +8 on a K14 meter, BTW. I usually try to keep under 85dBSPL (C-weighted) over the course of a working day.

BTW, from a thread on another forum:

http://www.musicplayer.com/cgi-bin/u...348;p=0&r=actu

Bruce Swedien says that one advantage of working with a fixed monitor gain is:

"It is exceedingly important to always use the same monitor volume level, on one set of speakers, when mixing music. When we do that, it will enable us to always perceive the expreme ends of the spectrum of our mixes with the same intensity. If we constantly change the monitor volume level on a certain set of speakers.... our perception of the upper and lower ends of the spectrum will change, thus throwing our mix values off by a considerable amount."

[just.sounds]

Try The Prodigy, I did not measure it but a friend of my said it was something like K4
Wich would be more than twice as loud as k14 OUCH!!

[mars]

Originally Posted by just.sounds

Also a handy free tool could be the PSP vintage meter you can alter the settings to meet the K system and that is much better than Most of the moving colerfull bars in most DAW mixers.
But try it first with a test signal because it works on my platform but I can't speak of others.


Greetings

With the PSP I assume it's a simple as setting it for -14, but should the response time be altered from the standard 300ms?

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by mars

Okay - recovered from that embrassing IT'S RMS YOU FOOL!!! episode... (yes, it is -20RMS on the InspectorXL). However, once I've calibrated my monitors it's fine for mixing, but at the -6dB point, most modern pop stuff (Mariah, Usher, Coldplay, Damien Marley, Madonna, etc) feels way too loud -

You bet it does! Welcome to the lowest common denominator. The end result of the loudness race. You know what to do...

:-(

BK

[mars]

Guess I'll just have to set a -9dB or -12dB point! I'm just trying to get the K-system straight in my head - does the +8 I'm seeing correspond to -8 peak-to-average? On other meters most of this stuff hits -9 p-to-a.

[just.sounds]

Originally Posted by mars

With the PSP I assume it's a simple as setting it for -14,response

when -14 = 83 dB

Originally Posted by mars

but should the time be altered from the standard 300ms?

That would be the standard for a vu meter so you can keep it like that.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by mars

Guess I'll just have to set a -9dB or -12dB point! I'm just trying to get the K-system straight in my head - does the +8 I'm seeing correspond to -8 peak-to-average? On other meters most of this stuff hits -9 p-to-a.

I'm sorry, too much arithmetic today. +8 you say as read on what meter?

[just.sounds]

Originally Posted by mars

Guess I'll just have to set a -9dB or -12dB point! I'm just trying to get the K-system straight in my head - does the +8 I'm seeing correspond to -8 peak-to-average? On other meters most of this stuff hits -9 p-to-a.

Well remember this whatever K you want to use

take 0dBfs pink noise, make that the K number less loud (-12dBfs -14 dBfs or -20dBfs)
Set your monitor volume control to meet 83dB spl acousticly

and your meter to zero

that's it

Greetings

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by just.sounds

that's it

Greetings

Uh...sorry buddy that's not it.

[Trebor Flow]

This thread has explained something that has troubled me recently - which is ....

Why does my first album recorded on a Fostex DMT-8 (8 -track digital recorder and analog mixer) and Atari Creator for MIDI - sound so well ........ FANTASTIC.

I've worked it out back in those days - I had ONE MONO compressor! which I used for tracking vocals. I had a simple Behringer stereo mastering compressor and that was it - no computer editor, no loudness plugins.

Guess what - using just my ears to mix - coz that's all I had then (no fancy meters) this album perfectly conforms to K-20 on my RME meters. Funny that.

Everyone loves it and the qualities most used to describe it are "it is a very easy album to listen too.

So now I have a 1000 compressors available and more mastering plugins that you can shake a SPL meter at - I can pull my self back from the edge and ask myself very carefully "what are you going to do with all that compression"

I owe a debt of gratitude to this forum and BK for making me THINK about how great audio should sound - as my first album works becasue I had no access to tools that could ruin it - now I have those tools - I am going to be very very careful how I use them. I know this is obvious to many but I had literally lost sight of the woods for the trees (as the old adage goes)

This post was really a note to self.

trebor

[mars]

Originally Posted by bob katz

I'm sorry, too much arithmetic today. +8 you say as read on what meter?

Sorry - on Inspector XL set to K-14. The "red zone" for most modern pop stuff hits +8. I'm just trying to work out how this relates to RMS peak-to-avg as on a conventional linear meter. I'll check myself as soon a I get a chance.

[Nordenstam]

Originally Posted by Trebor Flow

I owe a debt of gratitude to this forum and BK for making me THINK about how great audio should sound - as my first album works becasue I had no access to tools that could ruin it - now I have those tools - I am going to be very very careful how I use them. I know this is obvious to many but I had literally lost sight of the woods for the trees (as the old adage goes)

A heartful thanks to you! What a warming comment in this world of squashed sound.

Gonna lift this qoute from this thread and use it in the 'clipping the lavry' thread. Hope you don't mind.

Coincidentally had a similar realization just a few days ago. Had a look at my best recieved track ever, now 8 years old. It was recorded live from a cheap behringer mixer to the minidisc like Phillips Digital Compact Cassete format. No compressor what so ever and no mastering at all. Almost couldn't believe how dynamic it is. Over 40 db's RMS range from the long intro and silent parts to the thunderous peaks! I wonder if it would have been released by any ME on this planet in such a dynamic wrapping. Especially given that it's electronic music. Yet, a lot of people love it and it have been played by dj's at several festival, and that says a lot since it's 30 minutes long. Go dynamics! =)

(hope this doesn't come across as fronting my own stuff, that's not the point!)