Sucks on genelecs, great on tv!

[Jose Mrochek]

I know the gennies have not been getting good reviews lately with the ADAM phenomenon but they still offer you a reality check on your mixes that consumer speakers don´t. My question is, why is that some cd´s sound very good on tv sets, cheap boomboxes.. but when you hear them on the gennies they sound like total crap!! Unlistanable distortion. Now I´m guessing that in a mastering house these distortions are even more out-there due to better monitoring. I don´t know how to make this question, but do you guys have a distortion headroom of somekind ? how do you know when loudness has hit the limit .. it´s allready distorting some db´s ago in your own room, when is it stop time ? do you reference with boomboxes ?

In other words at what point is it you turn around and tell the A&R dude.. enough is enough ????? thanks!

[andredb]

I have 8040 and 1031, could you make a few names?? maybe I can take a listen and figure things out better...

Btw, I kinda like Genelecs, they used to be overpriced but now...


Cheers

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

I know the gennies have not been getting good reviews lately with the ADAM phenomenon but they still offer you a reality check on your mixes that consumer speakers don´t. My question is, why is that some cd´s sound very good on tv sets, cheap boomboxes.. but when you hear them on the gennies they sound like total crap!! Unlistanable distortion. Now I´m guessing that in a mastering house these distortions are even more out-there due to better monitoring. I don´t know how to make this question, but do you guys have a distortion headroom of somekind ? how do you know when loudness has hit the limit .. it´s allready distorting some db´s ago in your own room, when is it stop time ? do you reference with boomboxes ?

In other words at what point is it you turn around and tell the A&R dude.. enough is enough ????? thanks!

Which Gen's are we talking about?

[andredb]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Which Gen's are we talking about?

OH yes, sure...

Which music on which system...

[TanTan]

love my Gene's what Cd's are you talking about ?

[Jose Mrochek]

1031´s the model. One of my Example´s would be the latest Oasis´s record (don´t believe the truth) A big part of the record is unlistanable. Then XY Coldplay´s album has some guitars that are out of control... literaly hurt my ears. But then I hear them on tv and it´s all great.

Don´t get me wrong, they are good sounding records, the mixing is awesome (specialy Coldplay´s) but what´s up with those out of control parts ?? That I only hear on good monitors like the gennies.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

1031´s the model. One of my Example´s would be the latest Oasis´s record (don´t believe the truth) A big part of the record is unlistanable. Then XY Coldplay´s album has some guitars that are out of control... literaly hurt my ears. But then I hear them on tv and it´s all great.

Don´t get me wrong, they are good sounding records, the mixing is awesome (specialy Coldplay´s) but what´s up with those out of control parts ?? That I only hear on good monitors like the gennies.

Basically what you are hearing is what's there.


Good music pushed to the edge of disaster because the labels are trying to make louder cuts that will attract the listeners with their Ipods(who are probably deaf to begin with).

[andredb]

Will check...

Coldplay was mastered by Chris Athes...Maybe he is the guy to ask...

[John The Cut]

All Oasis albums are unlistenable to on hi fi equipment.

'Definately Maybe' sounds like absolute garbage on my system (8030As), but ok on my "Mini System".

Its certainly badly produced but also some of these albums are intentionally mastered to the boombox/mini system listener. They're not hi fi at all.

Thats just my opinion on it.

[Absolute]

Why are you comparing it to TV? This makes no sense. The crudd never shows up on those tiny speakers. Even a shit mix can sound good on TV because they give such a narrow spectrum of whats really there. In fact just the other day someone put up a guitar clip comparison for me and I listened on my Computer/TV setup. The clips sounded almost identical.

Then I listened on my monitors and it was night and day--100% crudd.

Why dont you compare the mix on different monitors to the GenS. Until then there is no point in singling out the monitors or the mix.

[raal]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

1031´s the model. One of my Example´s would be the latest Oasis´s record (don´t believe the truth) A big part of the record is unlistanable.

funny, i bought that CD on a whim to have it as a 'reference'. i assumed it would be decent; but on S3As and BM15s w/sub, yup, unlistenable.

i actually think alot of these things sound the way they do because they sound great in the mastering house with $16K converters, but consumer CD players just can't deal with the illegal peaks.

once produced a thing that sounded great in the studio, but on the radio the s's just spit and saturated all to hell. the record was mastered at a very well known place in LA. something to think about next time i go in there and ask them to make it loud... or not. went #1 here in mexico spit and all.

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by andredb

Will check...

Coldplay was mastered by Chris Athes...Maybe he is the guy to ask...

Yeah, I thought the mixes were great too.
I have no idea why the mixes sound great on your TV and not on your Genelecs. I can't really remember what the record sounds like 'cause it's been a while. George Marino also did quite a bit of that record. They had us both master it and then they picked the tracks they liked the most and put them together on the album [nice to have money]. All I can tell you is that the band was listening very closely [they had apparently done the whole record, weren't satisfied, scrapped it and started all over again with M Brauer]. They were here for most of the mastering and the usual compliment of folks [mixer, band, label] got and eventually approved the refs. Everybody involved gave it the thumbs up and were very happy with the results [at least that's what they told us] and that's always my primary concern.

Maybe they shoulda checked it on your Genelecs.

[5down1up]

i would be VERY pleased if the bands would " always " release 2 cds .
no.1 can be smashed to death for the " proud to be loud " folks while no.2 contains a nice sounding master for all of those who have a volume knob on their system . listening to the mentioned cds in a loud party mood is really just PAIN to the ears . now we all have some big speakers with the result that you cant crank em up without being deaf immediately .

WHY o WHY ?

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by 5down1up

i would be VERY pleased if the bands would " always " release 2 cds .
no.1 can be smashed to death for the " proud to be loud " folks while no.2 contains a nice sounding master for all of those who have a volume knob on their system .

Me too.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by Masterer

Maybe they shoulda checked it on your Genelecs.

Chris man.. no offense!! I feel you took it a bit personal and that was not my intention, there are some guitar parts in a song (I will give you the song and part on detail later tonight) where there are some frequencies that kill me. I assume it has to do with pushing it a bit to much. I don´t hear that on TV, obviously they go unnoticed because it´s low fi.. but on the gennies, with all due respect they hurt my ears.

My question is, if you with your super duper hi fi system are hearing these frequency distortion.. how do you calculate the effect it will have on low fi devices like boomboxes ? do you reference that ? and then say.. hay, maybe .0001% of the listening community has 5k $ set of speakers, so let´s let this one pass !!???

Anyways, you are a mega pro pop mastering star.. I feel stupid even bringing this up. Sorry

by the way I don´t want to turn this into a loundness thread.. I just wanted to know, when mastering guys say it´s enough and how they get to that conclusion.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by Absolute

Why are you comparing it to TV?

Because there is a part of me that thinks that some mixes/masters are intentionaly made to sound great on TV and ignore the fact that some people have better sounding systems.

I want to know from the people making the top albums right now, if there is the occasional.. ¨it will sound kick ass and edgy on tv, so let´s leave it like that¨comment going on, And how often does that happen.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Good music pushed to the edge of disaster because the labels are trying to make louder cuts that will attract the listeners with their Ipods(who are probably deaf to begin with).

How is it that you know that even the ipod listener will be bothered by the distortion ? how do you calculate that.. because obviously I´m yet to hear a single on tv that sounds distorted, even St. Anger sounds real good on tv. I´m a huge mtv/vh1 watcher so I know my tv listening skills : )

[Watersound]

I too have noticed how some, or most of my own past mixes really sound like crap on the new Genelecs I just got, but let me tell you, it's because they are so revealing. The lo-fi systems don't reveal the flaws. I went back to an old mix and re-tweaked it untill I though it sounded great on the Gens and it took it to a whole new level. The 8050A's are awesome...but keep in mind I don't have many other reference monitors other than NS-10's-

[5down1up]

as far as i know ... signals during broadcasting are always processed !
they are not just playing a cd . most cds sound different from channel to channel from radio to radio . its prolly just VODOO and not intention from the mastering guys .

i might be wrong ...

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

Chris man.. no offense!! I feel you took it a bit personal and that was not my intention, there are some guitar parts in a song (I will give you the song and part on detail later tonight) where there are some frequencies that kill me. I assume it has to do with pushing it a bit to much. I don´t hear that on TV, obviously they go unnoticed because it´s low fi.. but on the gennies, with all due respect they hurt my ears.

My question is, if you with your super duper hi fi system are hearing these frequency distortion.. how do you calculate the effect it will have on low fi devices like boomboxes ? do you reference that ? and then say.. hay, maybe .0001% of the listening community has 5k $ set of speakers, so let´s let this one pass !!???

Anyways, you are a mega pro pop mastering star.. I feel stupid even bringing this up. Sorry

by the way I don´t want to turn this into a loundness thread.. I just wanted to know, when mastering guys say it´s enough and how they get to that conclusion.

Jose,
I'm not the least bit offended. Sorry if I came across that way. I think my "matter of fact" writing style comes across as sarcastic sometimes. I don't mean it that way.

It's really exhausting trying to straddle the line between your better judgment and what the client wants everyday. It's something many of us face. In the end, It's my job to deliver what they want and if I can minimize the damage along the way I do [don't get me wrong, some clients are brilliant and have impeccable taste, but they are in the minority].
I long ago gave up on being emotionally attached to my client’s projects and instead focus my energies on the things I can control. I say a little hallelujah every time a client says "don't worry about the level, let's just make it sound good". If I owned Sterling or if I were Doug Sax I could probably afford to tell my clients to take a hike if I didn't like what they wanted but I'm not in that position. I do the things I have to do so I can do the things I like to do, like pay my bills and do Chris Whitley’s last record for free 'cause I loved and admired the guy.

Sorry to go off on a tangent but it's been a long week and I just got off the phone with a client that said he's hearing a little distortion now and then on his record and could I fix it...... and oh yeah, then he asked me to make the record LOUDER.


And so it goes.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by Masterer

Sorry to go off on a tangent but it's been a long week and I just got off the phone with a client that said he's hearing a little distortion now and then on his record and could I fix it...... and oh yeah, then he asked me to make the record LOUDER.


And so it goes.

I hear you man. I know you are between a sword and a wall (saying in spanish don´t know if translates) all of the time!

And whenever you feel frustrated of your job just think about the millions of engineers who would like to be in your position : )

The only reason I brought up the XY album is because I love it and hear it all the time. I obviously nit picked a small part of that album which in the end is of no true importance. Guess I got my point/question mixed up.

Have a great weekend.

[Chapiro]

Sorry to go off on a tangent but it's been a long week and I just got off the phone with a client that said he's hearing a little distortion now and then on his record and could I fix it...... and oh yeah, then he asked me to make the record LOUDER.


And so it goes.[/QUOTE]

thats funny in a sad kind of way, you would think that these people (the customer) have more experience having done numerous albums i like my records to sound loud, and i like the "pop" sound i think it works for that particular style of music but it is sad when its taken to the extreme. also i thought that only we at the trenches went through those kinds of tribulations its nice to know that also the big guys go through them too, not to say that im happy for your troubles but... hey you get what im trying to say

chapiro

[Absolute]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

Because there is a part of me that thinks that some mixes/masters are intentionaly made to sound great on TV and ignore the fact that some people have better sounding systems.

.

You overthinking this. No one mixes a **CD for the TV. Period. You just dont know enough about TV speakers to understand why they dont reveal the mix

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

1031´s the model. One of my Example´s would be the latest Oasis´s record (don´t believe the truth) A big part of the record is unlistanable. Then XY Coldplay´s album has some guitars that are out of control... literaly hurt my ears. But then I hear them on tv and it´s all great.

I find most modern records are hard to listen to for similar reasons. I think it's an industry-wide disaster.


BTW, the TV speaker is usually a single-driver design with no tweeter, so you're getting a bit of a roll-off of the nasty high stuff.

I agree the Gennies are telling you more of what's actually going on.

Try old records and you'll be happier.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

I hear you man. I know you are between a sword and a wall (saying in spanish don´t know if translates) all of the time!

And whenever you feel frustrated of your job just think about the millions of engineers who would like to be in your position : )

The only reason I brought up the XY album is because I love it and hear it all the time. I obviously nit picked a small part of that album which in the end is of no true importance. Guess I got my point/question mixed up.

Have a great weekend.

Jose first of all try listening to the song with the picture off on the TV.


Its true what they say...video killed the radio star.


What we see with our eyes influences what we hear.


I've watched lots of videos where the sound is crushed beyond belief but seeing girls with next to nothing on always made the music sound better.


And if you don't like the way something sounds say it.


Don't be wishy washy about it.


Just because you don't consider yourself an engineer doesn't mean you can't hear something that's not kosher.


You are not the only one.


The public can hear it also or so they mention it to me inpassing conversations.


My Ipod statement was in response to the studies just released about the damage being done by the Ipod buds to people's ears.


I ride the train everyday and i hear people cranking the audio to feel the music more.


And you crank it to the max but the truth is because its crushed after a while you hit a wall that you can't go beyond.


The older music allowed you to do this.


When you wanted to feel it you turned it up and you felt it.


Now that feeling is gone.

[lucey]

Jose, you're hearing the record ... even on their first record, 2nd tune, craps out all over the place. 'Yellow' (dumped to PT) is worse than the others that were all 2". Digital artifacts, Compression, Distortions galore. And 103x Genelecs are odd harmonic boosters. A TV will never reveal any of that.

Originally Posted by Masterer

... and I just got off the phone with a client that said he's hearing a little distortion now and then on his record and could I fix it...... and oh yeah, then he asked me to make the record LOUDER.

Can you make it louder?~

And I hear Distortion!~





Better, but can you make it louder!~

I still hear Distortion!~





It's good but can you:

Make it a little louder!~

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by Absolute

You overthinking this. No one mixes a **CD for the TV. Period. You just dont know enough about TV speakers to understand why they dont reveal the mix

I don´t and I don´t want to know either. Maybe thrill is right and I should turn the picture off ... I know the reason why a TV doesn´t show me the stuff the Gennies show me. My question all this time was, when does the Mastering engineer says enough is enough ? It´s a simple question that has been turned around for some reason. Only Doug Sax can say enough is enough ? I don´t think so.. this problem is ultimately on the hands of the top mastering engineers. If sterling as a team decides to cut this crap, I´m sure others will follow like sheep.

Something needs to be done or not.. I don´t know. But I wish some sort of association should ban distortion on cd´s. AES´s guidelines or whatever. It could be a start for better days.. I know I´m dreaming but living in a country (Bolivia) where everything is achieved by strikes and road blocks.. (hey our president came to power like that) I´m sure that some sort agreement could be reached by the top ME´s to (like Brad put´s it) stop the violence.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by max cooper

BTW, the TV speaker is usually a single-driver design with no tweeter, so you're getting a bit of a roll-off of the nasty high stuff.

.

And this is my second question.....

Is the quote above maybe a reason to push it harder ? does the single driver design make it sound edgier or more appeling on first listen when the song is LOUD? Because, in a way.. older recordings don´t sound as fun on tv and we all know it pisses us off when we turn to a channel where raising the volume is needed.

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

My question all this time was, when does the Mastering engineer says enough is enough ? It´s a simple question that has been turned around for some reason. Only Doug Sax can say enough is enough ? I don´t think so.. this problem is ultimately on the hands of the top mastering engineers. If sterling as a team decides to cut this crap, I´m sure others will follow like sheep.

I don't think Sterling or any other mastering house, big or small, can do anything about it. Additionally, I think you give Sterling and other big mastering studio's WAY to much credit when it comes to influencing the industry. Labels and artist have a vast group of engineers to choose from these days and there are more mastering studios now than ever before.
The sound [and level] choices come from the clients, not the mastering engineers. You cannot legislate taste. The only thing you can do is to choose to not do those records and subsequently loose the business. Clients will find people who will deliver what they want. If you are in a position to turn down work you are very fortunate, but I think you are part of a very small minority. I'd love to be a part of that minority someday but I have no illusions that it will change the business. I think many mastering engineers, especially those who have done a lot of major label work feel the same way I do.

Sorry this has gotten so far away from your original question. I don't think you can know what your work will sound like on all the various playback systems. I think most mastering engineers just try to make it sound good in their rooms. If your monitoring environment is fairly true [or flat or whatever] and you are very familiar with it things tend to translate well to the average playback system.

Hey, maybe I'll start offering discounts for clients who want rational levels. Maybe i'll charge by the db!! Maybe that'll work.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by Masterer

Hey, maybe I'll start offering discounts for clients who want rational levels. Maybe i'll charge by the db!! Maybe that'll work.

: ) maybe who knows!!

Chris I have to disagree with you on a couple of things. I think this industry is made up of role models. When Bob Clearmountain ¨discovered¨the ns-10 you know what happened.. the Alge bro´s are also responsible for a ¨sound¨that many want to emulate... the Beatles, where and are the role model for many if not most of the producers.. etc.. the list goes on, and I think there are role models in the Mastering business also. Yes there are people who do excellent work who don´t work @ sterling or the other famous mastering houses. Like there are mix engineers doing great work that we have never heard about because they did not hit the mainstream. Clients rarely go to these unknown people because of the work they do, they go because of price. It´s important for a client to have the name Andy Wallace on their credits. It´s important for a client to master at Sterling.. etc.. it´s about status against their peers or competition. I personaly think Sterling and the other big boys have the power to change things.

Clients did not go into the loundness war because they like it more, they did because everybody else was doing it and they have to compete. There obviously needs to be a consent between all the big boys in order for this to happen. Loyalty in favor of music.

Like you are frustrated by this, I´m sure everyone else is. I personaly think the big names have the power to do this. I´m sure it´s hard for you to see it because you strike me as humble hard worker, but me as a unknown nobody it´s easier to picture this happening. I don´t know what other people think... this is just my opinion.