Mixing Kick/Snare Louder for Mastering?

[ChriGar]

I've been listening to The All American Rejects album. This is the band with the song "Dirty Little Secret". I think it sounds great! The drums especially are very big and open. Nice round kick, punchy fat snare. My question is, Chris Lorde Alge, the guy who mixed it, does he tend to mix his kick and snare extra loud to compensate for the mastering process which knocks down peaks? OR, is it WORSE to mix kick and snare loud because it takes more processing to knock them down (or off) which in turn changes the way they sound?

Chris

[Durv]

i seem to be hearing the same thing...
especially in ROCK/METAL.
the snare especially...way up there.
Durv

[bpatural]

I've heard some some of his mixes before mastering and they sound pretty much the same (i think he says the mastering engineer barely needs to breathe on them and they're mastered), just maybe a few db quieter, but he usually seems to mix drums right in front and punchy which translates well in mastering. Samples many times too.
-brian

[ChriGar]

So would you say in terms of CLA, the relevant sound of the kick and snare on his finished masters is pretty much the same as it is in the mix? I've been listening to a lot of CLA's latest albums. He's damn good! Seems to compress every individual track, even heavy guitars I've heard sounding a bit squishy in a good way. I assume he also prints to tape because everything has a nice sounding thwack to it, like hitting a Studer.

Back to topic, what do most ME's prefer here? Mix the kick and snare a db or two up (from where you would naturally level them) or mix it leveled normally?

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by ChriGar

So would you say in terms of CLA, the relevant sound of the kick and snare on his finished masters is pretty much the same as it is in the mix? I've been listening to a lot of CLA's latest albums. He's damn good! Seems to compress every individual track, even heavy guitars I've heard sounding a bit squishy in a good way. I assume he also prints to tape because everything has a nice sounding thwack to it, like hitting a Studer.

Back to topic, what do most ME's prefer here? Mix the kick and snare a db or two up (from where you would naturally level them) or mix it leveled normally?

Leveled "normally" please.

[Brad McGowan]

Why would you want to make a mix that sounds anything other than "right" to your ears? I think if the mastering engineer is upsetting the balances you've worked so hard to set up in your mix then you are using the wrong ME.

Brad

[sloper]

It's strange. If you listen to the Alter Bridge disc the kick is obviously being squashed to death in the mastering process which contributes to it's larger than life sound. At the end of track 4 you can hear the kick drum suck the life out of the rest of the mix while the drummer finishes off the song with 4 measures or fast triplets. I'm pretty sure it's no accident that the kick got mixed in so loud. Depends on what you're doing with it i guess. I've got a good relationship with the guy who does my mastering and sometimes i'll send off a project with the intention of making it sound different than when it left. (I'll usually send two different mixes)

With that all said most of the time i want my mixes to sound the way they did when they left. The way i mixed them!thumbsup

[godcity]

When I mix, I mix it how I want to hear it. But if there's any doubts, i'll mix the things with lots of transient response (close mic drums, percussion, vox, etc.) a little on the loud side. Because I know not that the ME is automatically going to squash it so much that the kick and snare will get lost, but if he does feel like those things are out of balance, he can pull out the steady state tracks with some extra compression. It's easier to do that than to bring out the drums and vox if they are too low. This is also a reason to print stems as a safety. But again, just mix it right the first time and you won't have to worry about it.

Originally Posted by ChriGar

I've been listening to The All American Rejects album. This is the band with the song "Dirty Little Secret". I think it sounds great! The drums especially are very big and open. Nice round kick, punchy fat snare. My question is, Chris Lorde Alge, the guy who mixed it, does he tend to mix his kick and snare extra loud to compensate for the mastering process which knocks down peaks? OR, is it WORSE to mix kick and snare loud because it takes more processing to knock them down (or off) which in turn changes the way they sound?

Chris

[Bob Boyd]

Originally Posted by bpatural

I've heard some some of his mixes before mastering and they sound pretty much the same (i think he says the mastering engineer barely needs to breathe on them and they're mastered), just maybe a few db quieter, but he usually seems to mix drums right in front and punchy which translates well in mastering. Samples many times too.
-brian

I had the pleasure of mastering a CLA mix a couple of months ago. Hands down one of the best mixes I've ever had in. Everything balanced very, very well, the sounds of the individual instruments were spot on, and nothing was mixed forward for mastering.

[djui5]

Originally Posted by ChriGar

So would you say in terms of CLA, the relevant sound of the kick and snare on his finished masters is pretty much the same as it is in the mix?

It should. If your kick and snare drop in level after mastering, you need to find a new mastering engineer.

[Earwitness]

Originally Posted by ambientdig

I had the pleasure of mastering a CLA mix a couple of months ago. Hands down one of the best mixes I've ever had in. Everything balanced very, very well, the sounds of the individual instruments were spot on, and nothing was mixed forward for mastering.

But how much headroom did he leave you to work? Maybe on that high a level there dosn't need to be so much headroom. Thats the biggest thing I hear from ME's is leave us headroom to do our part!
good post!
sam

[Bob Boyd]

Originally Posted by Earwitness

But how much headroom did he leave you to work? Maybe on that high a level there dosn't need to be so much headroom. Thats the biggest thing I hear from ME's is leave us headroom to do our part!
good post!
sam

2-3dB. no overs.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by ChriGar

does he tend to mix his kick and snare extra loud to compensate for the mastering process which knocks down peaks? OR, is it WORSE to mix kick and snare loud because it takes more processing to knock them down (or off) which in turn changes the way they sound?

I would prefer your mix was as close to what you want and as balanced as possible, then I can easily do more or less to it, based on what you want from mastering.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by lucey

I would prefer your mix was as close to what you want and as balanced as possible, then I can easily do more or less to it, based on what you want from mastering.

I totally agree. But I would like to hear the sound of the raw mix of "American Idiot" before it was mastered. It sounds suspiciously like they pushed the snare into oblivion on purpose to compensate for aggressive mastering.

BK

[lucey]

Originally Posted by bob katz

I totally agree. But I would like to hear the sound of the raw mix of "American Idiot" before it was mastered. It sounds suspiciously like they pushed the snare into oblivion on purpose to compensate for aggressive mastering.

or clipped the AD

[zboy2854]

I sat in on a mixing seminar with Chris' brother, Tom Lord Alge, where he went through the mix for Korn's "Word Up". And the one thing that stuck with me was how once he had all the faders on the SSL up, the song was DONE. They could have put the song out right there without mastering, it didn't need any EQing, or extra compression. Tom himself said he mixes with the idea of the mastering engineer not having to do much more to his mix in terms of processing than transfer it, and maybe bump the overall level.

Definitely reinforced to me the fact that if you're doing your job right as a mixer, it should sound already exactly the way you want to hear it on the radio before it ever goes to mastering.

[Bob Olhsson]

Part of a mastering engineer's job is to focus or clarify the intended balance without changing it. If the amount of compression desired would change the balance, it's best done as part of mixing because the balance between musical elements is a mix decision.

Mixing is about the presentation of the music, the performance and the recording. Mastering is about the presentation of the mix. The final results generally suffer when the line between mixing and mastering becomes blurred.

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by bob katz

I totally agree. But I would like to hear the sound of the raw mix of "American Idiot" before it was mastered. It sounds suspiciously like they pushed the snare into oblivion on purpose to compensate for aggressive mastering.

BK

Not likely. I suspect CLA doesn't think at all about mastering when he's mixing.

Much more likely that he gets the mix he likes - that the band and the label and everyone else listens to and approves [cause it doesn't go to mastering till they approve it] - then that gets mastered - which everyone listens to and approves [obliviated snares included].
Rinse and repeat untill the label and the band get what THEY want and the record is done. I ran into those guys a few times while they were working on the record and they seemed very pleased with it. They must have been because THEY APPROVED it.

Go figure.

[indie]

Originally Posted by zboy2854

I sat in on a mixing seminar with Chris' brother, Tom Lord Alge, where he went through the mix for Korn's "Word Up". And the one thing that stuck with me was how once he had all the faders on the SSL up, the song was DONE. They could have put the song out right there without mastering, it didn't need any EQing, or extra compression. Tom himself said he mixes with the idea of the mastering engineer not having to do much more to his mix in terms of processing than transfer it, and maybe bump the overall level.

Definitely reinforced to me the fact that if you're doing your job right as a mixer, it should sound already exactly the way you want to hear it on the radio before it ever goes to mastering.

I agree. We had Tom mix something for us a couple of years ago. After mastering, it sounded almost the same as when we received the straight mix. The Lord Alges are the radio kings.
Micahthumbsup

[bloodstone]

I have found that utilizing loudness maximizers accentuates the bass guitar and kick presence in the mix, it doesn't diminish them.