Food For Thought

[daveybasso]

i just want to throw this out there.....

if you take your pointing fingers, and use them to bend the tops of your ears forward...even just a little...you can head a dramatic change in the "EQ" of what you hear...all of a sudden you hear a bunch of hiss....mids get hollow.....bass diminishes...even from just a small change in ear structure....

so that being established as fact,

and also the fact that everyones ear structure/shape,conture etc etc is different. how can anyone say they have "mastered" anything?

mastered for them and thier ears maybe, but since MY ears are shaped differently, i then am going to hear YOUR master differently than you hear it...no?
.
if such a small movement in the ear can cause that much of a eq change....then how can there be and standards in mastering?

this is why you get such a different array of opinions when asking about a particular pair of monitors or microphones or preamps on this forum i bet, because everyone ears are shaped a little differently than others..some ALOT differently lol =)

just food for thought

[SonicAlchemist]

the real question is what would happen if you held your ears in that position for a long period of time. Would you brain compensate as it gathered information about how things sounded compared to what information it was getting from your eyes, etc. .

Much of how we perceive the world is not just a matter of how we physiologically receive signals to the brain, but also what the brain does with the information once it gets it.

I'm sure you are familiar with the fact that the brain flips the image it gets from your eyes. There are many (if not all of them) situations where your brain performs compensating 'calculations' (only a metaphor).

Anyhow, this is a possible explanation for how different people with different facial bone structures and ear shapes/slopes with otherwise healthy hearing would share a largely common musical experience.

Just as long as their ears had been configured that way long enough for the brains to know how to interpret the signals it got from them.

[finetuner]

Perceptual adaptation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Sunbreak Music]

Originally Posted by SonicAlchemist

the real question is what would happen if you held your ears in that position for a long period of time.

My son has the answer--they'll stay that way.

[LV mastering]

!!! Hi !!! First post on Geraslutz !!!

if such a small movement in the ear can cause that much of a eq change....then how can there be and standards in mastering?

It is mainly because we use existing audio materials as references.

If your personal audition has a 2dB dip at 4khz, you will you offset the Equalizer while mastering a track to make it sound the same as your reference tracks. ( a reference track is a track wich is considered as a reference by producers, engineers and other professionals)

[daveybasso]

Originally Posted by LV mastering

!!! Hi !!! First post on Geraslutz !!!

It is mainly because we use existing audio materials as references.

If your personal audition has a 2dB dip at 4khz, you will you offset the Equalizer while mastering a track to make it sound the same as your reference tracks. ( a reference track is a track wich is considered as a reference by producers, engineers and other professionals)

and that reference track was mastered by someone with differnt shaped ears then me so is it fair to say that its "reference" to him pretty much? and if i try to make my track sound like his using MY ears isnt that gonna be innacurate? or no.....the answer must be what Sonic Alchemist said about the adaptation our brains do

[daveybasso]

Originally Posted by SonicAlchemist

the real question is what would happen if you held your ears in that position for a long period of time. Would you brain compensate as it gathered information about how things sounded compared to what information it was getting from your eyes, etc. .

Much of how we perceive the world is not just a matter of how we physiologically receive signals to the brain, but also what the brain does with the information once it gets it.

I'm sure you are familiar with the fact that the brain flips the image it gets from your eyes. There are many (if not all of them) situations where your brain performs compensating 'calculations' (only a metaphor).

Anyhow, this is a possible explanation for how different people with different facial bone structures and ear shapes/slopes with otherwise healthy hearing would share a largely common musical experience.

Just as long as their ears had been configured that way long enough for the brains to know how to interpret the signals it got from them.

that is a very valid possibility, but when you say the brain compensates what norm or standard is it compensating to?..just...its idea of what "good" should sound like?

[SonicAlchemist]

not what 'good' should sound like, but what things HAVE sounded like in the past. Your brain processes sound while also getting visual information, for example. So your brain would expect something to sound one way or another if it has enough previous experiences to predict.

One of the interesting aspects of philosophy of mind is that much of what you see/hear/feel is initially our expectation for that sensation.

Consider that when you dream that your brain is able to take all kinds of information gleaned from your past history and use it to create a reality in your head that can be so real you don't know the difference. This would include having someone yell at you through a closed door, and the muffling would be correct. Or the sound of your voice in a cavern, or even with a finger in your ear.

So this isn't about your brain compensating to make things sound better -- it would be compensating to make things sound as expected, based upon previous experience.

or so the theory goes

[LV mastering]

Davebasso wrote

and that reference track was mastered by someone with differnt shaped ears then me so is it fair to say that its "reference" to him pretty much? and if i try to make my track sound like his using MY ears isnt that gonna be innacurate?

No, the "copied track" won't be inacurate because it's only a matter of "OFFSET"
If your hearing has a dip at 4khz, you'll hear the "reference track" with this dip and will master YOUR track accordingly. There will be the same amout of energy at 4khz.

We can discuss the fact why a reference is a reference :
As for language or culture, a reference track is the result of a long evolution and consensus.

[blusound]

Originally Posted by daveybasso

i just want to throw this out there.....

if you take your pointing fingers, and use them to bend the tops of your ears forward...even just a little...you can head a dramatic change in the "EQ" of what you hear...all of a sudden you hear a bunch of hiss....mids get hollow.....bass diminishes...even from just a small change in ear structure....

so that being established as fact,

and also the fact that everyones ear structure/shape,conture etc etc is different. how can anyone say they have "mastered" anything?

mastered for them and thier ears maybe, but since MY ears are shaped differently, i then am going to hear YOUR master differently than you hear it...no?
.
if such a small movement in the ear can cause that much of a eq change....then how can there be and standards in mastering?

this is why you get such a different array of opinions when asking about a particular pair of monitors or microphones or preamps on this forum i bet, because everyone ears are shaped a little differently than others..some ALOT differently lol =)

just food for thought

This is a classic false problem.
Each person is different from each other, and is not a simple problem of ear shape. Even if each person has identical ear shape all of us will listen in different way because of differences in medium and inner ear and differences in the way the brain create the "listening experience".
The same problem is for each sense we have. The same for sight, smell, taste etc...
This fact doesn't prevent we by having painters cooks or perfumes appreciate by the majority of us (and this is a cultural fact...). In the same way I think we could have good MEs too.
Anyway as a general fact I think that a theory that is in contrast with what happens daily is not a great theory.
Starts from the facts is always a better way of thinking
Best regards
Leo

[daveybasso]

Originally Posted by blusound

This is a classic false problem.
Each person is different from each other, and is not a simple problem of ear shape. Even if each person has identical ear shape all of us will listen in different way because of differences in medium and inner ear and differences in the way the brain create the "listening experience".
The same problem is for each sense we have. The same for sight, smell, taste etc...
This fact doesn't prevent we by having painters cooks or perfumes appreciate by the majority of us (and this is a cultural fact...). In the same way I think we could have good MEs too.
Anyway as a general fact I think that a theory that is in contrast with what happens daily is not a great theory.
Starts from the facts is always a better way of thinking
Best regards
Leo

i was just thinking that this may be a valid reason why some people even though they have a great room and great equippment still make lackluster masters.....could possibly be that thier ear canals are VERY differnt in shape from most people in society? could that account for the guy that no matter how hard he treis , just cant seem to make a good master? might he just be cursed from that start by his particular physiology?

[blusound]

Hi deveybasso,
maybe you have to change many restaurant before to find one that you like particularly, even all of them have great cookings.
The same is for mastering.
To speak about the implications of different physiology in complex social activities is a matter that could be out of the range of this forum possibility I think (at least out of my possibility even I studied a little psychology of perception).
Best regards
Leo

[Thomas W. Bethe]

This was years ago but a company put out some wedges made of soft material that you could put behind your ears to make faint sounds clearer. They were designed for sportsmen who could not have hands free to cup their ears. I even saw a company that had large pieces of plastic that you could attach to your ears to amplify weak sounds. You looked like DUMBO but you got "better hearing" according to the adverts.

There was some research done lately where they molded someone else's outer ears and placed them over a test subject's ears to see what would happen and the test subjects got all confused as to where sounds were coming from. Turns out the ear/brain connection is something we are born with and the brain learns to use the ears it has to work with.

We all hear slightly differently just as we all see slightly differently but someone with trained ears should be able to master material that sounds good to most everyone. The trick is the training and the experience and that is something you cannot get from reading or casual listening.

To take the original OP's ideas to a more ridiculous level..what about someone who is partially deaf or has a messed up frequency balance what do you do about "mastering" for them? Mastering has to be about averages and not about extremes or ears that are flexed in weird ways.

Good topic! If you are interested in the ear brain communication you can find out a lot here http://science-education.nih.gov/sup...fo-hearing.htm

[LV mastering]

what about someone who is partially deaf or has a messed up frequency balance what do you do about "mastering" for them?

Exactly the same mastering you'd do for anybody with an average hearing.
That is because this person is accustomed to his hearing, accustomed to recognize a violin sound , a snare drum, a flute sound, a rock band.....

Chances are your mastering will make instruments sound close to reality or to usual standards and then everybody (whatever hearing specificities they may have) will appreciate your work....

-------------
Laurent Van die donck
LVmastering.com

[t_d]

i asked the same question a couple years back.. maybe there's some more info there:

ear shape

[Hypagen]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

I even saw a company that had large pieces of plastic that you could attach to your ears to amplify weak sounds. You looked like DUMBO but you got "better hearing" according to the adverts.

I wonder if you were referring to something like this Thomas:



Could come in handy for attended mastering sessions where the clients were being a bit noisy behind you on the couch!

[Jim Williams]

This is why I never trust audio engineers with "Barak Obama ears".

Finding headphones to cover them is also a problem.

[daveybasso]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

This was years ago but a company put out some wedges made of soft material that you could put behind your ears to make faint sounds clearer. They were designed for sportsmen who could not have hands free to cup their ears. I even saw a company that had large pieces of plastic that you could attach to your ears to amplify weak sounds. You looked like DUMBO but you got "better hearing" according to the adverts.

There was some research done lately where they molded someone else's outer ears and placed them over a test subject's ears to see what would happen and the test subjects got all confused as to where sounds were coming from. Turns out the ear/brain connection is something we are born with and the brain learns to use the ears it has to work with.

We all hear slightly differently just as we all see slightly differently but someone with trained ears should be able to master material that sounds good to most everyone. The trick is the training and the experience and that is something you cannot get from reading or casual listening.

To take the original OP's ideas to a more ridiculous level..what about someone who is partially deaf or has a messed up frequency balance what do you do about "mastering" for them? Mastering has to be about averages and not about extremes or ears that are flexed in weird ways.

Good topic! If you are interested in the ear brain communication you can find out a lot here Hearing—Information about Hearing, Communication, and Understanding

thanks Tom i will definatly check that out =) yeah i can definatly see now that the brain makes compensations and sort of summs to a norm of what a crash should sound like or a tom, snare etc etc...makes sense

[daveybasso]

Even if each person has identical ear shape all of us will listen in different way because of differences in medium and inner ear and differences in the way the brain create the "listening experience".


i didnt think about the inner ear shape....good point!

[lucey]

'Hearing' is what ears do. 'Listening' comes from the head and the heart. This explains how we get more deaf and yet more skilled with age lol.

[grandmasters]

Mastering is just as much about how something sounds as how it 'feels'.