HIGH END MASTERING RATES...

[perun]

Hi there, Slutz.

Does anyone know mastering rates/tariffs per song/project at Bob Luwig's Gateway, Bernie Grundman's, Herb Powers' or Big Bass Brian's mastering suites??? I'm asking for a recent project I finished, it is modern pop- RnB mixture. It is very punchy, maybe needs more!!!! So... who would be your choice and why?

I would realy need to know what are your experiences, if you had some, with them and are they realy "making it happen" everytime??? I haven't contacted them yet, wanted to ask you Guys first.

Thanks. Regards...

[dokushoka]

Originally Posted by perun

Hi there, Slutz.

Does anyone know mastering rates/tariffs per song/project at Bob Luwig's Gateway, Bernie Grundman's, Herb Powers' or Big Bass Brian's mastering suites??? I'm asking for a recent project I finished, it is modern pop- RnB mixture. It is very punchy, maybe needs more!!!! So... who would be your choice and why?

I would realy need to know what are your experiences, if you had some, with them and are they realy "making it happen" everytime??? I haven't contacted them yet, wanted to ask you Guys first.

Thanks. Regards...

It'd really be impolite for someone to post their rates here. Why not just call them?

[zkaudio]

Last time I used a guy in LA, came recommended 800 for 5 songs, reasonable.

[perun]

Originally Posted by dokushoka

It'd really be impolite for someone to post their rates here. Why not just call them?

OK. Maybe it would. But that's ( price ) not the only thing I asked for here.

[TML]

Silvertone Mastering
silvertonemastering.com
thumbsup

[C_F_H_13]

This is nothing more than a story I heard from a friend of a friend, but I hea that Ludwig charges somewhere in the area of 250-500$ per minute...of audio...

So you figure around 10,000-20,000$ an album.

Sounds like BS to me, but you never know, I've heard crazier things....

[johnjm22]

Check out Oasis mastering in North Hollywood. They've done lots of major label projects, and you can get an estimate from their website.

My estimate was $2000 for a 10 song 45 minute album.

[jayfrigo]

It's no secret. The upper level guys get around $300-400/hr. You can sometimes find a deal, especially with guys who are still upper level, but maybe not quite the profile of a Ted Jensen or Bob Ludwig. You can get a project mastered at a big house by a name engineer for $3,000-5,000, but you'll have to book in advance - months in advance if you wan to use one of the top-tier guys. However, if you go just a step down the ladder, $1,500 is enough for an experienced engineer in a real room with real credits.

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by perun

Hi there, Slutz.

Does anyone know mastering rates/tariffs per song/project at Bob Luwig's Gateway, Bernie Grundman's, Herb Powers' or Big Bass Brian's mastering suites??? I'm asking for a recent project I finished, it is modern pop- RnB mixture. It is very punchy, maybe needs more!!!! So... who would be your choice and why?

I would realy need to know what are your experiences, if you had some, with them and are they realy "making it happen" everytime??? I haven't contacted them yet, wanted to ask you Guys first.

Thanks. Regards...

For the style of music your are doing Perun i'd probably go for Herb Powers or Brian 'Big Bass" Gardner , if you can afford their fee's i think they are great for RnB/Pop .

Always remember, the better your mixes the better the mastering .

[perun]

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

For the style of music your are doing Perun i'd probably go for Herb Powers or Brian 'Big Bass" Gardner , if you can afford their fee's i think they are great for RnB/Pop .

Always remember, the better your mixes the better the mastering .

I know. That's the only truth, offcourse. We're doing our best for 8 years here in Serbia.

I've done a job with Mr. Bob Katz and I wasn't satisfied. His phylosophy was similar to mine, to be honest, but at this time in modern music, there are some leveling standards. He was -8 dB comparing to any other RnB material... or should I say comparing to Herb or Brian Big Bass... Katz said he doesn't like distorted tracks, me neither, but STANDARD is SET, unfortunately... If I did a PURE SOUND project, I would surely be satisfied, but this thing... NO, thanks.

Thanks for your replies, Slutz... Regards.

[Bishbashbosh]

Originally Posted by perun

I've done a job with Mr. Bob Katz and I wasn't satisfied. His phylosophy was similar to mine, to be honest, but at this time in modern music, there are some leveling standards. He was -8 dB comparing to any other RnB material... or should I say comparing to Herb or Brian Big Bass... Katz said he doesn't like distorted tracks, me neither, but STANDARD is SET, unfortunately... If I did a PURE SOUND project, I would surely be satisfied, but this thing... NO, thanks.

Bob Katz has repeatedly gone on record with his philosphy on the loudness wars. His answer is 'if you want it louder turn it up'.

IMO Bob is a genius at what he does, BUT he's not the man for a super loud R'n'B track, if volume is really what you're after.

That's a little like hiring Steve Gadd to do a death-metal album.

[perun]

Originally Posted by Bishbashbosh

Bob Katz has repeatedly gone on record with his philosphy on the loudness wars. His answer is 'if you want it louder turn it up'.

IMO Bob is a genius at what he does, BUT he's not the man for a super loud R'n'B track, if volume is really what you're after.

That's a little like hiring Steve Gadd to do a death-metal album.

Well you see, we can make it this way. A guy comes into my Studio and wants to do a POLKA track. I just simply tell him... LOOK, I don't do Polka tracks. For years of my work I told people what I can and want to do and if I'm not doing Polka tracks, that's it. He is a genius, I know that, but he should say he doesn't do RnB. He listened to our tracks, gave us A grade for mix and quality and by the sentence "don't fix what wasn't broken" he did a poor mastering on those tracks. He almost said that there's nothing needed. So, when he finished pre-mastering, he sent me A+ result. It maybe was musicaly, but unfortunately it was -8dB!!!

So, the point is, don't do something you can't or don't want to do. I asked him to put it into STANDARD. But my thoughts were- RNB STANDARD> Never mind, he knew what I wanted to get! Regards.

[perun]

P.S. I'm not a SUPERLOUD freak. It's nice having it loud, but without negative side effects- distortion... But man, leaving it as it was on mixdown... Something just isn't clear for me there!!!

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by Bishbashbosh

Bob Katz has repeatedly gone on record with his philosphy on the loudness wars. His answer is 'if you want it louder turn it up'.

IMO Bob is a genius at what he does, BUT he's not the man for a super loud R'n'B track, if volume is really what you're after.

That's a little like hiring Steve Gadd to do a death-metal album.

IMO That's a very good analogy.

[Bob Olhsson]

Lots of confusion here.

Most mastering facilities charge an hourly rate for "eq. sessions" or "studio time," a somewhat lower rate for "editing time" because it doesn't require using the main room and a flat rate for each reference disk, copy or master. Some charge an additional "per program minute" rate for restoration work involving expensive hardware and software that is almost never required for an ordinary mastering job.

The charges for reference disks, copies and masters tend to be on the high side because many artist contracts require the artist to pay for studio time but not for "parts."

[Gregg Sartiano]

A lot of these mastering houses have a fee of about half of the main person's for the "new guy/girl." And the new guy/girl a) uses the same gear and b) has usually been doing this for years and years as well.

Call/email the mastering houses and ask what they can do for independent projects. They'll give you a fair assessment, because to book any time, they'll eventually need a deposit (not right away -- maybe 2 weeks out), so they don't need to 100% assess your rep anyway. Not as if the biggies are starving for business, but anyway...

They make the best cappuccino at Bernie Grundman's, but the drip coffee at Marcussen is great. And Moonlight Mastering always has the righteous snack food supply -- it's so good you can skip meals and chow down after an all-nighter preparing 24-bit files -- just be sure to pick Nancy up a Starbucks on the way. And BG is right near Roscoe's Chicken & Waffles -- the L.A. classic.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

A lot of these mastering houses have a fee of about half of the main person's for the "new guy/girl." And the new guy/girl a) uses the same gear and b) has usually been doing this for years and years as well.

Yeah but by the same token they aren't Bob Ludwig,Bernie Grundman, Brian Gardner,Herb Powers,Doug Sax,Tom Coyne and Ted Jensen.

If you got the dough and you want the best than go for it.

It may seem a lot ot some but when you are the best at what you do you will charge accordingly.

[De chromium cob]

Originally Posted by TML

Silvertone Mastering
silvertonemastering.com
thumbsup

I totally agree....Larry is a class act, great mastering engineer and a true bargain at the rates he charges.

[perun]

Slutz, thanks for your replies!!! Your PM mastering offers, too!!!

Hear from you soon...thumbsup

[Darius van H]

If cost is no object, i'd choose either Chris Athens or Herb Powers.....don't like what Brian Gardner is doing in recent years.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by perun

I know. That's the only truth, offcourse. We're doing our best for 8 years here in Serbia.

I've done a job with Mr. Bob Katz and I wasn't satisfied. His phylosophy was similar to mine, to be honest, but at this time in modern music, there are some leveling standards. He was -8 dB comparing to any other RnB material... or should I say comparing to Herb or Brian Big Bass... Katz said he doesn't like distorted tracks, me neither, but STANDARD is SET, unfortunately... If I did a PURE SOUND project, I would surely be satisfied, but this thing... NO, thanks.

Thanks for your replies, Slutz... Regards.

Hi, guys. A friend pointed me to this thread and I've decided to join up with the gearslutz here... Don't you think it is a good idea to hear from the guy who "did it" rather than speculate? So, here's the whole, untold story of this project.

It is ironic that only last week I "smashed" a rock and roll album to oblivion and the client absolutely loved it. But this is what he was looking for from the beginning, the style of the mix, the style of the music, the reference CDs that he cited, his stated goals were all in the "distorted", Coldplay/Green Day/ ad infinitum "in your face" style.

However, the music, the performance, the recording technique, the acoustics and even the messge and feel of the R&B song which Perun brought to me for mastering were totally "acoustic". This was as classic an R&B song and feel as anything I have seen or done in 30 years. It was also not a "loudly" mixed mix if you get my drift. There were very few if any "aggressive" samples being used. To repeat, it was EXTREMELY ACOUSTIC.

His song was extremely conservatively mixed, and I doubt that even Brian Big Bass or Howie Weinberg could distort it enough to come up to -3 dB RMS levels! Clearly this was not a candidate in any way, shape or form for this type of treatment.

When Perun told me that the recording was "6 dB lower than current standard" (whatever the term "standard" means in a world where there is now 14 dB difference among pop CDs) I decided to pass on mastering his product. I felt that I would not like to spend a day listening to myself completely altering the intent and feel of an acoustic R&B album. Frankly, it was an offensive chore to anyone sensitive enough to feel the music. Most mixing engineers here in the states doing "classic R&B" would be offended to hear a result that would be the sonic equivalent of grafting a lemon branch onto an orange tree. I'm sure my "classic" R&B clients who are extremely happy with my work would agree.

I rarely turn away work, I aim to please and to give the client what they are looking for, even if it's really not the best choice in my opinion. I usually give them my opinion at the beginning in a 5 to 15 minute discussion, and if they want to go in a different direction, then that's the direction I go. Anyone who knows me knows that I bend over backwards to please, including making revisions. But in Perun's case, I decided that an unpleasant day spent creating an atrocity was not my turn-on for the week, and so I decided to pass.

In addition, I was extremely proud of the mastering which I did for this song. It was considerably "louder" than his mix, but in addition, it sounded distinctly better than his mix, it had more body, punch, impact, depth, clarity, dimension, and "danceability". It was about a K-10 to K-8 on my scale, which is FOUR DB LOUDER than it "ought to be" for good radio play, MP3 creation, in other words, still louder than it should be by any objective standards. The only place it would sound the greatest would be on the home stereo and in the car... Anything above about a K-12 is a VERY FRAGILE product, as the many examples I can cite would demonstrate.

And it simply did not sound "crushed". People ask me day in and out how i am able to accomplish this quality of sound at these levels... it is truly an art. But in this day where anyone can smash and grit and distort and "fatigue" the hell out of a product and learn how to do it like "Big Bass", and that's the truth, the real art is to learn how to do it tastefully... fortunately I have many clients with taste, or if you prefer to say it, "with that kind of taste."

And this is the letter which I wrote him, which I stand up for to this day. If anyone would like to hear an MP3 of an excerpt Perun's raw mix and the master which I sent him, then we could put it up here if this is allowed, but only if he gives permission.

Reference was not approved---see below

Dear [real name deleted]: I'm sorry that you are demanding a sound quality that in my opinion is not a good sound quality [for your style of music and recording]. It is impossible to raise the level of this production or make it brighter without making it sound bad or worse. I am certainly willing to work with you if you think it needs to be a little bit brighter or a little hotter, but not 6 or 7 dB. There are some Bell-Biv-Devoe releases or Janet Jackson releases that are impossible to listen to that are 4-6 dB hotter than this one, but please don't call that the "standard."

I am proud of the mastering that I gave you; someday you may feel the same way, but perhaps not now as it seems that in many of the European countries the style is to follow or imitate a particular sound rat rather than to innovate. I know for a fact that what I gave you will translate better to the radio and the home and the clubs (been there, done that). Standards of good sound never change, some recent recordings deviate so far from good sound that you think they become the "standard" but what happens is that the "standard" is slipping downward and downward in quality as the level goes up. That is not a standard, that is just a deviation from good standards.

I've done plenty of very good sounding R&B productions with the sound quality and level that is on this recording and the artists and the record company have been very happy with the results; they sound better in the clubs, on the radio, and at home. It's the "classic" R&B sound, if you want to talk about a standard.

------

OK, that's the story here from Lake Woebegon. Now why not let's talk about the topic of "translation" and what that really means.

Best regards,

Bob Katz

[TEMAS]

Great first post Bob and I for one admire your integrity in that situation.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by TEMAS

Great first post Bob and I for one admire your integrity in that situation.

Thank you, Temas! Still feeling my way around. I can't figure out how to tell when a new, unread post has arrived in any thread nor how to mark a thread as read....

[Bishbashbosh]

Hey Bob,
great to have you here!
I'll give it another 10 minutes before someone asks you to be a guest moderator!

[dussel]

nice to have you here Bob. It is great to have people like you on this forum!

regards
Dussel

[GilWave]

Originally Posted by TEMAS

Great first post Bob and I for one admire your integrity in that situation.

I second that. Thanks for taking the time to "present your case".

Great insigts into "the mind of mastering". I am sick of all the smashed product out there - who told the artists and the labels that dynamics and headroom were bad things?

-gil

[AlanTide]

and rumor has it he uses WaveLab now.

[perun]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Hi, guys. A friend pointed me to this thread and I've decided to join up with the gearslutz here... Don't you think it is a good idea to hear from the guy who "did it" rather than speculate? So, here's the whole, untold story of this project.

It is ironic that only last week I "smashed" a rock and roll album to oblivion and the client absolutely loved it. But this is what he was looking for from the beginning, the style of the mix, the style of the music, the reference CDs that he cited, his stated goals were all in the "distorted", Coldplay/Green Day/ ad infinitum "in your face" style.

However, the music, the performance, the recording technique, the acoustics and even the messge and feel of the R&B song which Perun brought to me for mastering were totally "acoustic". This was as classic an R&B song and feel as anything I have seen or done in 30 years. It was also not a "loudly" mixed mix if you get my drift. There were very few if any "aggressive" samples being used. To repeat, it was EXTREMELY ACOUSTIC.

His song was extremely conservatively mixed, and I doubt that even Brian Big Bass or Howie Weinberg could distort it enough to come up to -3 dB RMS levels! Clearly this was not a candidate in any way, shape or form for this type of treatment.

When Perun told me that the recording was "6 dB lower than current standard" (whatever the term "standard" means in a world where there is now 14 dB difference among pop CDs) I decided to pass on mastering his product. I felt that I would not like to spend a day listening to myself completely altering the intent and feel of an acoustic R&B album. Frankly, it was an offensive chore to anyone sensitive enough to feel the music. Most mixing engineers here in the states doing "classic R&B" would be offended to hear a result that would be the sonic equivalent of grafting a lemon branch onto an orange tree. I'm sure my "classic" R&B clients who are extremely happy with my work would agree.
I

I've done plenty of very good sounding R&B productions with the sound quality and level that is on this recording and the artists and the record company have been very happy with the results; they sound better in the clubs, on the radio, and at home. It's the "classic" R&B sound, if you want to talk about a standard.

------

OK, that's the story here from Lake Woebegon. Now why not let's talk about the topic of "translation" and what that really means.

Best regards,

Bob Katz

Well, Hi there Bob! Haven't heard from you for a pretty long time. Nice. To be honest I'm realy glad you've sent your first post here on GS. Top Pros are always welcome for discussions and I'm sure many people will hear many useful stories from your pro career.

Concerning our UNFINISHED JOB, passing on it after "hearing my LOUDNESS story" can not be true. Let's write a short retrospective from the start. You know I told you that this EP of artist callad DANA was partialy done in BELGRADE, SERBIA ( 2 tracks my team did ) and SOUND ON SOUND studios in NY City ( 2 trzcks, too by their engineers, I realy don't know their names ). The fact was, we did our job better, I'm talking about arrangements at first place. Considering the mix and technical part, except TRIDENT 80B and LEX 300, we didn't have anything... exept VST plugs on our computer. No outboard, nothing. I didn't tell you that then. Ok, we tracked everything on 2" machine etc. The mixes were, by my opinion, very correctly done. To be honest, from this perspective... nothing special. Realy. But you said they're A+. Remember? Not to fix what wasn't broken??? Thanks, I appreciate your honesty, I hope it was honest.

Where is the problem? Problem is SOS NY STUDIO's part of the job. How would it be if on the same project you had 2 totally different sounds... OK, it wouldn't be that unnaturally, cause 2 teams did a job on two different continents. But what would you people say if you heard a track that is 6dBs lower then previous one. Would it be OK? I was not insisting on LOUDNESS, I wanted more punch if possible and I wanted straight- TO FACE presence, which was there already.

Bob, I wanted you to improve things we've done in our mix. And the truth is you did it OK. All but level. When I say STANDARD... look, those guys at SOS NY will replicate BIG BASS' system of pre-mastering, they won't be simulating your approach... maybe unfortunatelly, but... That's how it is. I'm absolutely on your side, Bob... I told you when we talked I don't like distorted tracks, flattened... But we had to think of the other part of the project- SOS guys' part. Industry, too. And we (you) didn't. OK, i was not unsatisfied with your mastering, but that was not what we wanted you to do... and we told you what we want. And at the start of this thread I was writing about our new project, not DANA. She was ACUSTICAL, as you said True.

You could have said you don't do it like that. I would say THANKS!!! But you did it. And it's OK, but SOS is 6 dBs LOUDER. It's not good.

Bob, this was very pleasent... hearing you after a year or so. Best regards from Belgrade... say HI to your lovely secretary, who's Russian professor was from Serbia. Hear from you soon...


Marko Perunicic, Atelje Trag Agency

[sounddevisor]

Sorry to blatantly ignore the original thread topic, but I just wanted to add my welcome and big THANKS to Bob Katz!

Bob, your book has become one of the most valuable pieces of gear in my studio - I've read it cover to cover three or four times now, and I still learn something new and useful every time I crack the cover. Thanks a lot for writing it, and I do hope we'll be seeing you around this forum from time to time.

Sorry to blatantly ignore the original thread topic - Okay, I'm not really sorry. :-)

[TanTan]

welcome Bob it's great to see you here , a great honour to us all
love your book