Why the low standards for hiphop VINYL mastering?

[TWC]

This is coming strictly from a DJing perspective, but I'm wondering if anyone here is involved in the process and has any insight.

If you compare most rap singles to the average single from another genre such as electro or dnb, the volume is usually 20% lower on a hiphop vinyl and the bass is weak. It seems that a lot of times they press the vinyl with unnecessarily narrow grooves to fit the most tracks on each side, and they end up sounding like garbage. If your releasing a SINGLE i can't see any reason to have 4 mixes of the A crammed on to one side and 4 mixes of the B on the other. Its possible to make a 33rpm single that sounds as good as a 45, but if your ramming 4 tracks on each side it doesnt seem likely.
As for LPs.. they border on unplayable in a club. I bought Urban Legend by TI, and then ended up going out and buying the singles off it anyway cause the LP sounds so mushy. and those killah cuts type EPs are just straight terrible, which is sad cause thats the only vinyl release a lot of tracks get.
whats the deal? Do the labels just not care about vinyl anymore? seems like they havent bothered to keep up with other types of dance music

[con?one]

i agree (thank god for serato). not saying that this is the whole explanation, BUT, alot of that dance h!t is made in europe and they just tend to spend more money on packaging, pressing, etc... (to a fault).
also, vinyl sales are alot better in that genre than in hiphop... most vinyl winds up being given away (even though PLENTY of record stores wind up selling the promos) and the LPs sit there are get returned all the time. it sucks, but it is what it is.
i think another part of it is that there just ain't as many people out there doing decent vinyl mastering. i remember when there was a ton (and i'm talking like, 5 years ago).

[XSergeantD]

I think it more has to do with the skills and knowlege of the mastering engineer who's cutting the laquers and/or whoever is/isn't making the decisions on how the laquers get cut. If the client wants 4 cuts on one side or 8 on one side, the mast. er is forced to cut down on the land between the grooves and to change the groove depth. I don't think marketing makes these calls, so I'd lay some blame on producers or whoever doesn't attend mastering sessions. That or the inability of the mastering engineer to explain to the decision makers how their decisions will affect the final product.

[KevWest]

how about the budget? remember that pressing comes out of the funds for the album if ur gonna press vinyl u expect it to sell but most hip hop fans arent buying vinyl. its purely producers and djs everyone else will cop the cd so why pay more for vinyl when ur not gonna make as good of a profit from it as u would making cds.

[illynoise]

There's a guy in Denver that has a mastering operation in his house and we got some pretty nice results from him.

www.aardvarkmastering.com

he does dubs also. I've bit it a few times on mastering for vinyl, but your right about the volume, because it's so tempting to put 3 songs on each side, reg version, inst and acapella.

BaseJase
Illynoise

[TWC]

Originally Posted by illynoise

There's a guy in Denver that has a mastering operation in his house and we got some pretty nice results from him.

www.aardvarkmastering.com

he does dubs also. I've bit it a few times on mastering for vinyl, but your right about the volume, because it's so tempting to put 3 songs on each side, reg version, inst and acapella.

BaseJase
Illynoise

thanks for the link! just the kind of info I was looking for

[balaperdida]

Pardon me if this is an ignorant statement, but isn't the weak bass sound to which you refer a practical limitation of vinyl? Wouldn't the depth of bass grooves in modern hip hop cause the needle to skip out of its groove or otherwise garble the signal?

[TWC]

Originally Posted by XSergeantD

I think it more has to do with the skills and knowlege of the mastering engineer who's cutting the laquers and/or whoever is/isn't making the decisions on how the laquers get cut. If the client wants 4 cuts on one side or 8 on one side, the mast. er is forced to cut down on the land between the grooves and to change the groove depth. I don't think marketing makes these calls, so I'd lay some blame on producers or whoever doesn't attend mastering sessions. That or the inability of the mastering engineer to explain to the decision makers how their decisions will affect the final product.

This is really something that marketers/producers should sort out. cause if I'm DJing and I cut from dizzee rascal - stop dat into "The New Club Banger from ...." and the bassline sounds like someone is playing it on a kazoo thats usually the last time ill drop it. and I'll always reach for the records that bang. If the focus of releasing vinyl is promotion, you're really shooting yourself in the foot if your putting out something that DJs dont want to play.

ps. I like your sig quote. Nietzsche is probably the best writer on music EVER. Anyone looking for really entertaining read with some deep deep thoughts on music should check out Nietzsche contra (vs.) Wagner. Its basically an entire book of Nietzsche dissing his ex-best-friend Wagner for falling off (the guy who wrote "Ride of the Valkries" and the Ring cycle.) Its the single greatest peice of unadulterated 'hating' ever created.

[TWC]

Originally Posted by balaperdida

Pardon me if this is an ignorant statement, but isn't the weak bass sound to which you refer a practical limitation of vinyl? Wouldn't the depth of bass grooves in modern hip hop cause the needle to skip out of its groove or otherwise garble the signal?

nope. you get a much fatter bass from vinyl, which, correct me if im wrong, has a lower frequency range than CD. also the analogue nature of the needle introduces extra warmth to the bass.

The bass on a record isn't acually controlled by the depth, its the side to side motion that produces the sound. The depth governs the stereo image. If its shallow sound will come out of the left and if its deep the sound comes out of the right (or vice-versa, Im not sure). I guess the shallow grooves are why LPs sound so mushed together

Needles skip out of the groove because vinyl wasn't mastered correctly. the problem is that if you have a big bass sound or a kick that is not centered, the needle gets violently flung to one side while at the same time the groove gets very shallow. this causes the needle to jump out of the groove and is why certain records are un-cue-able. Im sure everyone has run across those records where you just can't cue the first kick without it skipping. thats a mastering error, and its really common on a lot of white labels...

[balaperdida]

Thanks for a very informative post, TWC! thumbsup

[TWC]

Originally Posted by adamatic

I've got some records with crazzzzzy bass on them, check out about 70% of the dancehall records out there or old bass music like afrorican. Personally I think alot of stuff these days isn't mixed with vinyl in mind, if your 2 track has too many crazy short stereo delays and phasey shit going on with the bass, no low mids and 15-20 minutes of music on each side of the record of course the shit ain't gonna hit. tutt .

yeah dancehall records sound amazing. especially the stuff by South Rakkas Crew (Toronto represent) like Bionic Ras and Red Alert. I used to do a weekly at a local reggae bar called Thymeless. Its a tiny space (20 x 40) with a ridiculously overpowered system (two cerwin vega scoops, two JBL dual 18", and a home-made tweeter setup). It was fun as hell pounding dancehall on that thing. The only problem was the system was thoroughly EQed for roots rock so it sounded funny if you tried to play rap on it

another genre that has great sounding records is Soca. I dont like a lot of it, but theres a parade here in the summer called Carabana that consists of about 40 flatbed tractor-trailers with diesel generators and huge soundsystems on them. Some of the stuff those guys play blows my mind. HUGE bass

[Arka]

I have to say that my europan pressing of the De La Soul "Bionix" album is really the blueprint of how vinyl cutting should be done as far as treble content. It sounds like a CD, tons of clean hi end. Usually the top end gets all fizzy and essy if you try to get anywhere near as much treble as CD´s.

peace /Arka

[XSergeantD]

Originally Posted by TWC

Needles skip out of the groove because vinyl wasn't mastered correctly. the problem is that if you have a big bass sound or a kick that is not centered, the needle gets violently flung to one side while at the same time the groove gets very shallow. this causes the needle to jump out of the groove and is why certain records are un-cue-able. Im sure everyone has run across those records where you just can't cue the first kick without it skipping. thats a mastering error, and its really common on a lot of white labels...

Low frequencies actually get summed to mono when cutting to a laquer

[joshelevator]

i put out breakbeat/electo records on vinyl. yeah, the less info per side, the louder you can get it. most mastering engineers won't cut it superloud (+5,+6, +7!!) unless you demand it and again, this can only be done with one song on a side. i don't recommed going above +5 because the engineer will usually be pissed because these records don't always come out right. ever get a really loud record and the needle skips a groove? this is usually why.

some masteing engineers like to cut it really loud. these would be folks who generally cut the loud stuff-break, d n b ect...i use a guy who like to cut it pretty loud but if i want to make sure i get a certain over-compressed d n b sound for track, i bring in some records for him to a/b against. if you don't live near the guy, i guess you can send him a cd ref and say, i want it loud. i personally don't like it if its slamming loud anymore. i keep it more +3, +4 (which is still loud as hell) in order to keep a bit more dynamics.

[TWC]

Originally Posted by XSergeantD

Low frequencies actually get summed to mono when cutting to a laquer

Yeah thats what Im saying. Its when someone forgets/neglects to sum a low frequency to mono that it skips

[TWC]

Originally Posted by adamatic

Another point that I think is worth bringing up is that its part of the dj's job to mix everything at an even level and cd's have people spoiled with stupidly hot levels. Even if you have two well mastered records that are resonably loud you still have to match the gain while you are mixing. I've hit that point before in a set where I've run out of headroom from a loud cut to a quieter one and had to gradually nudge the master volume on the mixer up a little bit to compensate then of course the next record is a little louder so I just turn the trim down to compensate. I wouldn't really blame that on the quiet record.

While I see your point, theres only so much you can do as a DJ.. sometimes your gonna have about 30 seconds to get your record matched and cued and if your in a hurry chances are your not gonna be checking the gain levels. I don't have a problem with some variation in gain, if its something that can be smoothed out while the track is playing and isnt glaringly apparent to the audience. but when its a huge disparity and lower sound quality, I do. and a lot of these tracks no matter how much you turn up the gain the bass is just not there

[(DC)]

Originally Posted by TWC

nope. you get a much fatter bass from vinyl, which, correct me if im wrong, has a lower frequency range than CD.

I'm not sure if that is exactly correct. A CD has a frequency range that should incorporate the range of human hearing. Now, that frequency is usually cut down if you don't have a hi-fi stereo system that goes from 20hz-20khz. But then again... bass at 20hz is almost inaudible... so there's no point for the bass to be that low. The fat bass sound is not about how low the bass is going... usually the fat bass sound is somewhere between the mid-bass range to the high-bass range... So I don't think it is the fact that the vinyl has a higher frequency range... There is something about the soundprint that a vinyl creates, that really amplifies the mid to high bass range...

[TWC]

Originally Posted by (DC)

I'm not sure if that is exactly correct. A CD has a frequency range that should incorporate the range of human hearing. Now, that frequency is usually cut down if you don't have a hi-fi stereo system that goes from 20hz-20khz. But then again... bass at 20hz is almost inaudible... so there's no point for the bass to be that low.

oh but there is! your ear might not "hear" it but you definitly sense it. The vibrations are out of the frecuency range of your hearing (a lot of people probably can't technically hear most of the frequencies below 30 even) but are so wide you feel them with your whole body. the record "18hz" by Dillinja is probably a good example. While you wont hear it on most consumer systems, a good club system will bang in the 20hz range. Bag End make some subs that go down to 8hz or something crazy like that. they got some at a reggae studio just outside Toronto.
true it does't sound "fat" per se, but it feels like a pressure drop that you sense with your whole body. I really think a lot of people have never heard proper subbass on a top rate rig. When those "brown notes" hit it feels like your chest is caving in

[Brad Blackwood]

Originally Posted by TWC

nope. you get a much fatter bass from vinyl, which, correct me if im wrong, has a lower frequency range than CD. also the analogue nature of the needle introduces extra warmth to the bass.

Vinyl generates far more distortion than CD's do, but CDs can record flat down to DC. I have test discs with tones down to 5Hz.

Originally Posted by XSergeantD

Low frequencies actually get summed to mono when cutting to a laquer

They can be but aren't by default (at least not by someone who knows what they are doing). Elliptical EQ should only be used to salvage out of control phase issues on the bottom end.

[Fat larry]

I have been cutting vinyl for the last 8-9 years if you have specific questions re vinyl mastering I will try to answer them.There has been too many inacurate points made in this thread for me to address all of them.

[Bob Olhsson]

The mix always dictates how hot you can cut. Too much top-end, sibilance, too much peak limiting or clipping, off center low frequencies, breath pops or out-of-control "drop" can each cause mis-tracking unless there's a significant reduction in cutting levels. We can put band-aids on the problems like so-called elliptical equalizers that sum the low-end but it never sounds nearly as good as careful attention to getting these details right in the mix.

Most turntables have a low frequency resonance right below 20Hz. that exaggerates the low end compared to flat playback of a tape or digital audio.