Mastering On Headphones

[daveybasso]

Just out of curiosity,

Does anyone know if there is any software out there that would facillitate mastering on Headphones?
I have a set of Sennheiser HD280 pro's that i would love to use and just bypass the whole...spending hundreds of dollars on bass traps and room treatments thing.

is it even possible? i keep hearing that with software to bring the spatial aspect back into the phones that it was possible. is this true?

ive also heard that these can be used for mastering because they claim to give you the exact same sound as the krk monitor -----> http://www.krksys.com/krk-headphones/kns-8400.html

[Franco]

You can use headphones for critical listening, sure, but you're going to have to spend a bit of money on a good DAC, Headphone amp and last, headphones. Those 280s are nice for checking the mid range of mixes and checking for clips on masters but for my ears, they don't have the necessary low frequency response to consider them serious reference cans, that's my opinion as I have them and other cans I like much better for critical listening, like my AKG 240DFs, K702s, Grado RS-1s, Sennheiser HD650s and modded Beyer 770s (I've recabled all my cans with different detachable wires/plugs; Furutech's for 1/4" and Canare's for 1/8").

As far as software that tries to mimic the response of speakers in a room, there's the Redline Monitor from 112dB. I bought it because I was curious to see if I could really get my cans to match the translation from my speakers but I didn't think it was helpful much when trying to match the settings to my speakers' positioning. I did like the reaction my Senn 650s had to it but more for leisure listening; wouldn't trust the image "mangling" when using them for critical listening.

I'd check out the Benchmark DAC-1 and then the SPL Phonitor for a headphone amp with speaker "emulation".

[daveybasso]

Originally Posted by Franco

You can use headphones for critical listening, sure, but you're going to have to spend a bit of money on a good DAC, Headphone amp and last, headphones. Those 280s are nice for checking the mid range of mixes and checking for clips on masters but for my ears, they don't have the necessary low frequency response to consider them serious reference cans, that's my opinion as I have them and other cans I like much better for critical listening, like my AKG 240DFs, K702s, Grado RS-1s, Sennheiser HD650s and modded Beyer 770s (I've recabled all my cans with different detachable wires/plugs; Furutech's for 1/4" and Canare's for 1/8").

As far as software that tries to mimic the response of speakers in a room, there's the Redline Monitor from 112dB. I bought it because I was curious to see if I could really get my cans to match the translation from my speakers but I didn't think it was helpful much when trying to match the settings to my speakers' positioning. I did like the reaction my Senn 650s had to it but more for leisure listening; wouldn't trust the image "mangling" when using them for critical listening.

I'd check out the Benchmark DAC-1 and then the SPL Phonitor for a headphone amp with speaker "emulation".

what about these?---> Ultrasone Edition8 Headphones and more Studio Headphones at GuitarCenter.com.

[Franco]

I've heard good things about Ultrasone headphones but I can't comment on them because I've never checked them out; I'm done with headphones to be honest and will only buy replacement pads, perhaps build new cables for the ones I have (just finished building a new cable for my 650s; cobalt techflex sleeving on black mini star quad to match them, cardas plugs; super nice).

My thing now is buying a mono block setup for my speakers because cans are cool but nothing compares to listening on speakers (that goes for mastering as well as listening for pleasure).

What kind of DAC do you have? Start there because no matter how much you spend on headphones, without a really great DAC and then a great headphone amp, you won't be getting the best out of whatever cans you decide on buying, just my honest opinion.

If I truly felt you can simply throw your money on just the cans and some plug-in to emulate speaker response, I would say so but I've been taking headphones seriously as a reference for over a decade now and it's not as simple (and cheap) as it may seem, to have a truly great headphone reference system. Good luck.

[daveybasso]

i just have a samson q-controll i plug into for headphone amplification, nothing special.

for my audio interface i use a emu 1212m

[Philosopher]

A good pair of reference headphones should be a part of your mastering setup and should be used to check for any problems that are not noticeable through monitors, but hearing how the music will sound through the air on a set of monitors and on regular speakers is a better reference (particularly in regard to the bass)

[api2500]

Originally Posted by Philosopher

A good pair of reference headphones should be a part of your mastering setup and should be used to check for any problems that are not noticeable through monitors, but hearing how the music will sound through the air on a set of monitors and on regular speakers is a better reference (particularly in regard to the bass)

I was going to say something like this in a much less polite way.

What are you trying to achieve with your mastering? Is it loudness, troubleshooting or for TV or Radio?

[StewartFang]

Client: I loved the way that sounded during capture

ME: Great let me put these headphones on and make some adjustments to the captured file

Client: wa...uh...OK

ME: There we go...perfect I'm burning a ref

Client: what about dit...

ME: It's all good I checked it in the headphones

[Dave Rose]

I use spl 2control, which has a cross feed control which narrows the image and gives you the idea the sound is coming from in front of you, to a certain extent. However I only use them for error checking during mixdown, just don't trust myself making eq decisions on phones (hd650.) Sorry to stray off topic here, anyone else find the hd650s lack high end detail (I've removed the inner foam but I suspect the foam pads may need replacing.) Sound very flattering and warm to my ears, but have a trick of making everything sound just a bit too nice!

[Franco]

Originally Posted by Dave Rose

Sorry to stray off topic here, anyone else find the hd650s lack high end detail (I've removed the inner foam but I suspect the foam pads may need replacing.) Sound very flattering and warm to my ears, but have a trick of making everything sound just a bit too nice!

Yep, I removed the foam discs from my drivers also; I think it helped the low end response (I thought they sounded a bit too muddy before taking them out, after that I think the low freqs sound tighter) but the highs are still way too dipped for me to trust the 650s for the entire range.

[16/44.1]

I'm using a Benchmark DAC1 & Sennheiser HD650 for a year now.
I don't need monitors anymore.

[cooker]

Not proud saying this; but I mastered a song with senn. 280 pro. The album was already mastered by a pro. but the band wanted a louder master for web and tv. They were lacking budget so I said ok (at first I advised them to go to the ME they previously worked with).

I don't consider myself professional but they got what they wanted, a loud master that was relatively mid forward. They liked what they heard so I guess using headphones worked out (though I did use my nearfields too).

[Franco]

Originally Posted by cooker

Not proud saying this; but I mastered a song with senn. 280 pro. The album was already mastered by a pro. but the band wanted a louder master for web and tv. They were lacking budget so I said ok (at first I advised them to go to the ME they previously worked with).

I don't consider myself professional but they got what they wanted, a loud master that was relatively mid forward. They liked what they heard so I guess using headphones worked out (though I did use my nearfields too).

Nothing wrong with that, as you pointed out that the album was already mastered and all that was needed was a bump in loudness. I actually have a couple of clients that "L2" my masters to get them a bit louder for digital releases, and I'm sure they do that on their macbook pro's (probably listening to the built-in speakers or using those crappy Apple earbuds). It happens!

I used the 280's just last night to remove three tiny, barely audible clips that I didn't hear on my B&Ws after printing a master. I wouldn't master on them myself as I've said I've got better cans and still like my B&W's, but I love those cans regardless, perhaps the best $99 anyone can spend for a good "work horse" headphone.

[daveybasso]

Originally Posted by api2500

I was going to say something like this in a much less polite way.

What are you trying to achieve with your mastering? Is it loudness, troubleshooting or for TV or Radio?

im trying to achieve great sound, loud,clear,balanced,even

and my biggest problem has been bass. i dont know how these guys manage to get such a strong forcefull puncy bass and it be SO CLEAR. so clean and zero mud......i mean you feel the bass in your bone marrow , yet it doesnt intrude one bit on any other freq's sound.......i try that and its a disaster....i wish i knew how to do that......lol..and i follow all the rules too.....i do rolloffs, eq sweeping for the sweet freq's, compression, leveling, and it still just totally mows over the rest of the mix. even tho it sounds great in my monitors ( KRK rokit 8's g2)....so it must be the room, and thats why im going to be building bass traps starting tomorrow. my whole desire for the headphones was to see if i could bypass all the work i have ahead of me building those traps and hanging thm etc etc, thats all but i see now that thats not an option....even tho one guy replied that hes been using cans for a year and doesnt need monitors lol

[Philosopher]

Its all about the reference; try experimentation, just try different methods and styles and burn lots of sample cd's. Once you know what sounds good on a variety of systems, you could actually listen to how it sounds on the headphones and then replicate that sound going forward. It is frustrating, but just keep trying.

[daveybasso]

yup...i sure will....and also im sure that once i get those bass traps in there the sound will improve as well

[Chris Bauer]

Originally Posted by daveybasso

I have a set of Sennheiser HD280 pro's that i would love to use and just bypass the whole...spending hundreds of dollars on bass traps and room treatments thing.

I find that when I master using monitors, the result usually sounds as good on headphones. But I cannot say that the reverse is always true.

I think the main problem with using headphones for mastering is that they do not give as a linear a frequency response as high quality full range monitors do in a well treated room. I use the Beyerdynamic DT880 Pro, which are considered to be an excellent pair of headphones. Yet even they deviate from a linear response by between 5-10 dB at the low and high end. By contrast, my monitor system deviates by no more than 3dB between 30-20,000Hz and its DSP EQ compensation technology reduces it even further. In other words, with monitors you have the potential to get a more accurate sound than with headphones.

All that being said, headphones are very useful for hearing the subtle clicks and pops that you might miss otherwise.

[jcc449]

Originally Posted by Chris Bauer

I find that when I master using monitors, the result usually sounds as good on headphones. But I cannot say that the reverse is always true.

and pops that you might miss otherwise.

I agree with the second part, but not completely with the first part.
I often end up mix twice; first with monitors and then adjust on headphone and then back to monitor to get both sound "even".

what happened is when I mix on headphone i tends to remove some dynamic range while I mix on monitor i would have to add these dynamic back on.
It is hard to have your mix sounded punchy and exciting from far away listening distance. Also, certain sources could sound big and clear on headphone but it would get weaker as listening distance increase. Such as Vocal, vox tends to sound louder in headphone than Monitor, which mix on headphone might result in mix quiet on vox; while you might do opposite when mix on monitor.
(THIS IS WHY MANY PEOPLE FIND MID FREQUENCY FORWARD SPEAKERS LIKE NS10M OR ADAM translate well. I think they translate to headphone well because of this. But so far i haven't found any mix on ADAM nearfield that sound good on main monitors in my experience).

Mix on monitor might end up over-react on bass frequency. The listening distance will increase the bass in the overall image. High frequency attenuates fast in air which might caused people to mix too bright and lack of bass while mix on monitor rather than headphone; especially on mid-field monitors because they usually placed much more away from the listening spot.
This is sort of why we often "EQ" the monitors a bit not for the purpose of the room acoustic, but for the purpose of closing that gap between monitor and headphone.

[fradoca]

To be honest i've done it on headphones more than once.
I've a pair of sennheiser hd 600(much more neutral than hd 650).
I've defoamed the drivers inside and outside(more extended frequencies response in low end and high end).
I've changed the stock cable with a new balanced one made of pure cryoed silver
(better speed on transients and more clarity in the frequency response)

But the the most important step has been the purchase of the

HPBA2-S by Qes Labs :

HPBA-2 S Custom order balanced headphone amplifier - QES Labs

here you can read my review :

“QES Labs HPBA-2 Balanced Headphone Amplifier ” - fradoca’s Review of QES Labs HPBA-2 Balanced Headphone Amplifier

it's an astonishing piece of gear.The best and the most neutral headphone reference monitoring system you can buy.A wire with gain as i call it.
The amplifier is totally balanced.The amplifier use Constant current drive:

Constant current drive: in the dynamic transducers, it's the current flowing through the voice coil which produces the magnetic field which interacts with the magnetic field of the magnet in the driver that causes the diaphragm to move back and forth. Thus a constant current amplifier has several advantages over the usual constant voltage amps: A current source amplifier delivers a precise current to the voice coil of the loudspeaker driver, ignoring the series impedance elements in the circuit, including the wire, connectors, the inductance of the voice coil, the resistance of the voice coil versus temperature, and so on, delivering higher accuracy and linearity.


My main dac is mytek connected with cardas golden reference cables.

this is the best setup i've been listening to in years and i've tried many combinations(different amps,cables dacs etc...)


but from a "real world" point of view nothing beats and properly treated room with a pair of great speakers and amps.
I mean you can do what you want even on headphones(if you know them
so deeply well and how the translate to the real world) but it'll always be
a secondary road to get to the final destination.Not a primary one.


cheers

[Franco]

Binaural recordings are a pleasure to listen to. I think this format will pick up as releases become more successful (I supported this movement by getting the new Chesky binaural recording "Explorations in Space & Time":

Chesky Records makes a high-rez album for Head-Fi'ers--in binaural! - Head-Fi.org Community

I got the 24/88k version, and while it comes with a stereo version of the project, you can tell that the focus of this project by Chesky was primarily for the audiophile headphone crowd. More info on Binaural recording from B&W:

A history of binaural recording | Bowers & Wilkins | B&W speakers

I hope more artists release binaural versions of their albums; those of us who use cans as serious reference tools will be ready for the gigs :-)

[Lehmman]

Originally Posted by fradoca

....I've a pair of sennheiser hd 600(much more neutral than hd 650).
.....
But the the most important step has been the purchase of the

HPBA2-S by Qes Labs :

HPBA-2 S Custom order balanced headphone amplifier - QES Labs

here you can read my review :

“QES Labs HPBA-2 Balanced Headphone Amplifier ” - fradoca’s Review of QES Labs HPBA-2 Balanced Headphone Amplifier

it's an astonishing piece of gear.The best and the most neutral headphone reference monitoring system you can buy.A wire with gain as i call it.
The amplifier is totally balanced.The amplifier use Constant current drive:

.....

Really interesting amp.
I was keeping an eye on the Sennheiser 600/650 and 800.
Did you test those headphones with you reference amp system?

Originally Posted by Franco

Binaural recordings are a pleasure to listen to. I think this format will pick up as releases become more successful (I supported this movement by getting the new Chesky binaural recording "Explorations in Space & Time":

I hope more artists release binaural versions of their albums; those of us who use cans as serious reference tools will be ready for the gigs :-)

and this
clip on youtube is illustrating.

[fradoca]

Originally Posted by Lehmman

Really interesting amp.
I was keeping an eye on the Sennheiser 600/650 and 800.
Did you test those headphones with you reference amp system?

yes i had the opporrtunity to test the hpba2s with hd 600 for about 4 hours.I have listened to a lot of reference material.My previous amp was the lake people g100.A really good amp.But when i tried the hpba2 it was like going from a bmw m3 to a pagani zonda.I will not buy any other amplifier.Valerio the owner and technical chief of Qes Labs is really
a talented craftsman of high end pro audio gear.Highly recommended.

[Babaluma]

Fradoca, how much for that QES HPBA2S headphone amp?

[Mastering7]

I use BEYERDYNAMIC DT-911 regularly for checking stereo width. Headphones may take you into the woods easily IMHO if they are the only tools for monitoring.

[fradoca]

Originally Posted by Babaluma

Fradoca, how much for that QES HPBA2S headphone amp?

due to the fact that the amp is totally customised the price may really vary.
For further info contact Valerio at Qes labs : coms@qeslabs.com

thanks

[api2500]

Originally Posted by Chris Bauer

I find that when I master using monitors, the result usually sounds as good on headphones. But I cannot say that the reverse is always true.

I think the main problem with using headphones for mastering is that they do not give as a linear a frequency response as high quality full range monitors do in a well treated room. I use the Beyerdynamic DT880 Pro, which are considered to be an excellent pair of headphones. Yet even they deviate from a linear response by between 5-10 dB at the low and high end. By contrast, my monitor system deviates by no more than 3dB between 30-20,000Hz and its DSP EQ compensation technology reduces it even further. In other words, with monitors you have the potential to get a more accurate sound than with headphones.

All that being said, headphones are very useful for hearing the subtle clicks and pops that you might miss otherwise.

Hook, line and sinker. I 100% agree. It can't be either/or. It's a balance of both.

[Lehmman]

Originally Posted by fradoca

yes i had the opporrtunity to test the hpba2s with hd 600 for about 4 hours.I have listened to a lot of reference material.My previous amp was the lake people g100.A really good amp.But when i tried the hpba2 it was like going from a bmw m3 to a pagani zonda.

Lol, thanks.
I know the hd 600, tested the 650, dunno, maybe because of the amp, but preferred the 600, even though the 650 has it's own strengths.
How would you compare the 800 in this regard?
Will the 800/hpba2 combo a serious match for critical listening through headphones, for your mastering purposes?
I didn't tested the HD-800 yet, but have read they're very analytical.

[DSPaudio]

After tons of research I use Stax.

No dynamic headphone can compete. Seriously.

But I wouldn't mix or master only with headphones! The stereo image is really tough to nail. And for electronic music (especially club material which moves air in the 25-40hz region) it will be impossible to judge how the bass will "feel" in a real room. I've worked very hard to get close to being able to master on phones because I move around a lot, but sub bass and imaging still require me to sit in front of full range monitors and I have multiple hi-end phones and crossfeed systems that I use regularly.

I would recommend more than 1 phone if you want to try and master without the room.

Stax Lambda or Omega, Audeze LCD-2, Beyer DT48a/e and perhaps a recabled and actively equalized Etymotic er4p/s. You can put all these in a medium sized bag and carry them with you.

However that's a few thousand dollars and you're still without confidence the imaging and sub bass will translate properly although the LCD-2 will get you closer in the sub department because it has just the smallest bit of growl. Stax are so clean they can't accurately represent how a real woofer distorts when driving bass frequencies so you'll be in the dark, although that dark is far more accurate and fun to listen to.

Whatever you do, measure your ears response and check graphs to see which phones you should audition and then listen to all of them.

For instance, here is the freq response of the Beyerdynamic Tesla T1:

http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCom...Type=0&graphID[]=2033

A friendly midbass hump and a reasonable slope into the upper freqs with a spike around 10khz. But check out the transient response compared to the Audeze or Stax!

Here is the T1 transient reproduction at 500hz:

http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCom...Type=4&graphID[]=2033

Yes, that's supposed to be a square wave. Most of the phones mentioned in this thread are even worse.

After watching this question come up time and again I've concluded gearslutz is full of amateurs talking up products they are familiar with rather than seeking the absolute best as indicated by science and phenomenal experience. And it's important to note, the absolute best doesn't carry the highest price tag!

Orthodynamic or Electrostatic will give you a far cleaner reproduction than any dynamic headphone.

I'm not sharing this data again... Only people who use the search function deserve enlightenment.

[Franco]

Originally Posted by DSPaudio

After watching this question come up time and again I've concluded gearslutz is full of amateurs talking up products they are familiar with rather than seeking the absolute best as indicated by science and phenomenal experience.

Ha! Is that right?

Well, I don't take anyone who feels graph measurements are the absolute truth seriously. I don't know about others, but that's just how I roll.

Originally Posted by DSPaudio

And it's important to note, the absolute best doesn't carry the highest price tag!

Thanks for reinforcing something I learned about 25 years ago.

Originally Posted by DSPaudio

I'm not sharing this data again... Only people who use the search function deserve enlightenment.

LMFAO!

[DSPaudio]

Originally Posted by Franco

Ha! Is that right?

Well, I don't take anyone who feels graph measurements are the absolute truth seriously. I don't know about others, but that's just how I roll.

Hi Franco,

I agree that graphs don't tell the whole story. That's why I gave a formula for narrowing the options and then suggested "listen to all of them". As in measure your own ears, use graphs to narrow the field, then listen to the candidates. Pretty logical way of making a selection no?

Originally Posted by Franco

Thanks for reinforcing something I learned about 25 years ago.

While you might understand that price is not an indicator of value,
many don't. Sorry to repeat something you already know... That happens on forums sometimes.

I think the only mistake in my previous post was to say in frustration that GS is full of amateurs... Obviously there are talented people around with much more skill than I, but sometimes I see the blind leading the blind to their favorite brand and think it's worth calling out. If it doesn't apply to you then don't take offense! I happen to have a lot of time invested in learning my own ears and researching/using top headphones

I'm not asking to be confrontational, but have you used Stax or tried one of the new Orthodynamics?

Peace,