How much longer will people pay for mastering?

[SCDBM]

Originally Posted by Kiljoy

This happened to me the other day. I was really happy how my master turned out but the label wanted it louder and brighter. Now it's a harsh modulated mess. :(

There u go! man, that must be so frustrating, it seems that some people in EDM only consider stuff "mastered" once it has been squashed through Ozone House Preset "just one more time, just to be sure it's as "mastered" as it can be"

really those guys have no clue and don't listen. One ear in, out the other....

[Chris190]

Originally Posted by Nathan Vinall

And I thought that was just the new sound of Nz DnB Hope all is well with you guys.

Label managers that were perhaps DJs in the past.... lost their high frequency hearing by listening loud all that time and now have the habbit of cranking up the highs when "mastering" a mix for a release because they can't hear it well and end up with a bright master

[wwjd]

Originally Posted by Nathan Vinall

Just One more crazy idea...Maybe there are people out there that actually like to grow foods and feed people!!! WOW now that's a novel idea!

We all been duped into thinking that we need to out do our neighbour, friends or even family. Competition serves only ego & business. Winners are in fact, clearly losers! I think skills and talent come from the Heart, maybe sparked by Ego at first, but soon that fall way side leaving the real core of passion to drive self improvement. Humans by very nature what to improve, not through monetary gain!

I'm with ya on ALL this. But this issue is far deeper in that EVERYONE is stuck in this matrix and not about to suddenly change - for the better. There's probably about 8 of us on the planet the know what you mean and we are not about to make any kind of dent in the fabric of what everyone ELSE percieves as their best version of reality. But, I understand everything you are saying. Let's start a cult!!!

[IIIrd]

Originally Posted by Nathan Vinall

Im afraid everything evolves over time or if it doesn't, it becomes extinct!

Everything is becoming more accessible and achievable in the modern world. There is an information overload and we all have access to it. So yes people will become more skilled and more capable of great results with out others.

Not for everyone of course, but most people will I believe be producing, mixing Mastering and releasing their own music with in the next year or two.

It's gonna happen, just a matter of when. Embrace change!


PS: I think it should be mandatory on GS for everyone to post under their real names and also have work to back up any statements made!! I stand by my name and my work.

Well thats true in a way...but there are those who like to record and mix, who can't be arsed to master it....there are those who want to make the music, but wont want to record and mix it...let alone master it....

So....some will do it all themselves...and some wont...the ones that wont...will need a mastering engineer, and or a mixing engineer.

I could learn to do my own dentistry, and you can get the stuff on the internet...but i wont...I'll go to a dentist.

One can also do ones own mechanical repairs on cars/ bikes etc...tools etc readily available, as well as the manuals to do it....are there hoards of out of work mechanics...no..same goes for tyre fitters, house moving companies, etc etc etc etc
cheers
Sean

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by Nathan Vinall

So here's another crazy idea ... What if we all did work for free!!?

YouTube - Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome: Bartertown

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by Masterer

Best post ever?

That bar must be awful low.

The previous best post read:

"I've heard mastering exists. Thoughts?"

[Storyville]

I know I start many a post like this, but I promise you here's the actual answer:

The mastering business, like many aspects of music production has thinned out - for the sheer simple fact that global economics have been in a recession and therefore most fields get less circulation. Are their other causes - sure - but that is the primary one. Many businesses in many fields have closed over the last decade - we've seen more closure than most often in history (at least in the US).

This is not because music is any less in demand, has lost value, or anything else. It is changing shape.

The home studio thing has in many respects increased the business flow for mixing and mastering engineers. People get the sounds in the computer then spend their money on fixing them. It's backwards, but whatever. Again, it's not a change in demand, it's a change in architecture. These can easily be mistaken for each other.

Because the traffic is the less predictable and the number of people playing the role of engineer has increased - the result is that the middle ground engineers are struggling. Some are falling out, others are working really freaking hard to become higher rung cats.


ok, that was point one.


two.


Mastering is not another set of ears in a different room. That's the plastic surgeon's office. A mastering engineer is another person who brings a new perspective to the table in order to augment a production. The different environment and sensibility is only a part of that. Gear is also a part of that. Creative energy and communication is also a part of that. Experience in hearing results from a diversified pallet. A good engineer of any sort sees eye to eye with the people driving the music and seeks to foster their goals and aesthetic.

Here's an example. Some mastering engineers have a great "global aesthetic" - in fact most successful ones do. However, some mastering engineers have a "personal aesthetic" - they hear something out of the music and seek that as the result. Sometimes you get mastering engineers who have tons of global aesthetic but little personal - they will always turn around a good result. Sometimes you get engineers who have a great personal aesthetic - they will turn around great results but require direction, or a rough master, or specific instructions - and then they turn around great results that improve upon what's given. Both aesthetics, and some combination of those aesthetics are totally legit. Different sets of musical people benefit from different aesthetics.

What most self-producing musicians lack is global aesthetic. That aesthetic is WAY more than a good musical ear. It's universal experience, that comes from trial and error focused on overall sonic context.

What most team based productions seek is the personal aesthetic. The mixing engineer probably can turn around a really good master. But, the mastering engineer can take that vision and make it even better through technical experience, their choice of gear and monitoring, and their own creativity finding the key elements and enhancing them.

But - it's hard to know which engineer is right for which exact situation because it's not cut and dry. Sometimes this gives the illusion that just doing it yourself is better.


Point is - both the self-producing musician, and the experienced professional team based musician benefits from the right mastering engineer down the line.



3


You can TOTALLY master your own music. Easily. Doing it well - good luck. It happens once every ten thousand records or so.



4


Any competent engineer in any regard, and most competent producers, will have a working understanding of mastering. By the same token, I don't know many mastering engineers who don't have a working understanding of the mixing and tracking process - and most play an instrument. However, if the mastering engineer is playing bass on the record something probably went wrong. Likewise, if the bass player is mastering the record, something probably went wrong.

I'm a mixing guy. I can totally master a record. Well. I know twenty mastering engineers off the top of my head who will kick my ass on an off day when it comes to mastering a record. Likewise, I'll go head to head with those dudes on a mix and we'll see how many can take it where I can. Same tools, different tasks.

However, if you suck at one, you probably suck just as bad at the other. If you're really good at mixing - you really appreciate someone who is really good at mastering.


5


If everything is free we would have a beautiful utopian society, until we realized that unfortunately we need incentive to do things we don't want to do. Read Atlas Shrugged - great book, though I totally disagree with Rand's notion of unchecked capitalism being the most successful form of economics and government.

[Nathan Vinall]

Originally Posted by wwjd

I'm with ya on ALL this. But this issue is far deeper in that EVERYONE is stuck in this matrix and not about to suddenly change - for the better. There's probably about 8 of us on the planet the know what you mean and we are not about to make any kind of dent in the fabric of what everyone ELSE percieves as their best version of reality. But, I understand everything you are saying. Let's start a cult!!!

Just incremental steps. One foot in-front of the other and it will happen. The matrix is failing hard and fast!

It's already started in a major way. Im not sure if you guys on here get chance to listen to any news / world affairs? But the old power structures are failing everywhere! Starting with the oldest and it will move on to our modern world soon enough. With our communications now this is spreading so fast it's almost instant. So fingers crossed it wont be to much longer. As "Storyville" was pointing out (Sorry didn't catch your real name?) Economic Structures are reshaping, shifting..DAILY!!

The new business model is...There is no model!! Its wide open for all to put out, that's why you are seeing a lot more industry cats coming out the woodwork and do things they wouldn't normally do, interviews, blogs, giving away so called "Secrets" Hell Im seeing it everywhere!! The days of holding onto knowledge is over. Information is wide open & flowing thick and fast for all to share and so it should be!! No one own's it, but lots of people acted like they do! We all borrow that information from others...Learn it, Pass it on, share it.

The old system wants you to hold onto those secrets hoping it will give you an edge over the next person, why? So they can get more money than you! That's the way it's set up, drive every against each other. Those days are almost numbered! Image how much everything would improve if we shared more knowledge!?

Why not teach people how to master, mix, produce or bake a cake if that's something they want to do then let them. Always someone that doesn't want to master. It's Swings & roundabouts. It will all balance itself out. The cream always ends up on top.

I truly believe the Mayans were right, it is the end of the world. The world as we knew it. The planet will be fine in that sense, but our way of living is about to take a huge turn.

Everyone on the planet is going to be affected by these changes in consciousness. Embrace the Chaos and just know its fine to do so.

So now I can concluded to this thread. "How much longer will people pay for Mastering". Not much longer as there will be no monetary system.

[Storyville]

Ah, Nathan, I get it - I dig it. There's many ways to write the story.

Real name is Matthew Weiss, got a website right in my signature, bio stuff here and in other parts of the web and such all with varying degrees of up-to-dateness, google search me and I'll come up. Pretty sure my website has my personal number on it. No secrets here friend.

[SCDBM]

Thank you!! EXTREMELY WELL PUT.

Maybe this should be a stickie?

Originally Posted by Storyville

I know I start many a post like this, but I promise you here's the actual answer:

The mastering business, like many aspects of music production has thinned out - for the sheer simple fact that global economics have been in a recession and therefore most fields get less circulation. Are their other causes - sure - but that is the primary one. Many businesses in many fields have closed over the last decade - we've seen more closure than most often in history (at least in the US).

This is not because music is any less in demand, has lost value, or anything else. It is changing shape.

The home studio thing has in many respects increased the business flow for mixing and mastering engineers. People get the sounds in the computer then spend their money on fixing them. It's backwards, but whatever. Again, it's not a change in demand, it's a change in architecture. These can easily be mistaken for each other.

Because the traffic is the less predictable and the number of people playing the role of engineer has increased - the result is that the middle ground engineers are struggling. Some are falling out, others are working really freaking hard to become higher rung cats.


ok, that was point one.


two.


Mastering is not another set of ears in a different room. That's the plastic surgeon's office. A mastering engineer is another person who brings a new perspective to the table in order to augment a production. The different environment and sensibility is only a part of that. Gear is also a part of that. Creative energy and communication is also a part of that. Experience in hearing results from a diversified pallet. A good engineer of any sort sees eye to eye with the people driving the music and seeks to foster their goals and aesthetic.

Here's an example. Some mastering engineers have a great "global aesthetic" - in fact most successful ones do. However, some mastering engineers have a "personal aesthetic" - they hear something out of the music and seek that as the result. Sometimes you get mastering engineers who have tons of global aesthetic but little personal - they will always turn around a good result. Sometimes you get engineers who have a great personal aesthetic - they will turn around great results but require direction, or a rough master, or specific instructions - and then they turn around great results that improve upon what's given. Both aesthetics, and some combination of those aesthetics are totally legit. Different sets of musical people benefit from different aesthetics.

What most self-producing musicians lack is global aesthetic. That aesthetic is WAY more than a good musical ear. It's universal experience, that comes from trial and error focused on overall sonic context.

What most team based productions seek is the personal aesthetic. The mixing engineer probably can turn around a really good master. But, the mastering engineer can take that vision and make it even better through technical experience, their choice of gear and monitoring, and their own creativity finding the key elements and enhancing them.

But - it's hard to know which engineer is right for which exact situation because it's not cut and dry. Sometimes this gives the illusion that just doing it yourself is better.


Point is - both the self-producing musician, and the experienced professional team based musician benefits from the right mastering engineer down the line.



3


You can TOTALLY master your own music. Easily. Doing it well - good luck. It happens once every ten thousand records or so.



4


Any competent engineer in any regard, and most competent producers, will have a working understanding of mastering. By the same token, I don't know many mastering engineers who don't have a working understanding of the mixing and tracking process - and most play an instrument. However, if the mastering engineer is playing bass on the record something probably went wrong. Likewise, if the bass player is mastering the record, something probably went wrong.

I'm a mixing guy. I can totally master a record. Well. I know twenty mastering engineers off the top of my head who will kick my ass on an off day when it comes to mastering a record. Likewise, I'll go head to head with those dudes on a mix and we'll see how many can take it where I can. Same tools, different tasks.

However, if you suck at one, you probably suck just as bad at the other. If you're really good at mixing - you really appreciate someone who is really good at mastering.


5


If everything is free we would have a beautiful utopian society, until we realized that unfortunately we need incentive to do things we don't want to do. Read Atlas Shrugged - great book, though I totally disagree with Rand's notion of unchecked capitalism being the most successful form of economics and government.

[Trell Blaze]

Originally Posted by daguv

I notice a lot of the dance producers are going it alone..

That doesn't make it a good idea...

[Surbitone]

Originally Posted by Nathan Vinall

YAP! It's all in the cards!

It was needed and has served its purpose. Money that is. But now its out dated and doesn't help, only hinder.

Meet everyones basic survival needs, food shelter etc and we would all do things for free, because we all have passions and love for various forms and functions in life. Its evolution at its finest, who are we to question or resist that!?

I completely hate the idea of "money", but how will we trade with one another? What will we exchange to represent the hard work we've done? There would have to be some replacement (no, not because I've been brainwashed by the system, man) - I can't see almost 7 billion people perfecting socialism overnight. I really don't believe as a whole we are anywhere near evolved enough to make a system like that work; certain human characteristics would have to be bred out to even give it a fighting chance. (laziness, greed, & jealousy being the main ones)

[I.R.Baboon]

IMO good dance producers with plenty of experience & talent, in a good room, can and should do their own mastering.

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by I.R.Baboon

IMO good dance producers with plenty of experience & talent, in a good room, can and should do their own mastering.

On some stuff....sure
On stuff they're too close to....nope!

Everyone can get tunnel vision.

They're just not hearing what the punter is gonna be hearing anymore!

[jackthebear]

You can only hear a rekkid for the first time once.........

[John Moran]

Originally Posted by Nathan Vinall

Why not teach people how to master, mix, produce or bake a cake if that's something they want to do then let them.

who wants to clean out the plugged up septic system for free ?

Anyone ?... Anyone ?...... Bueller ?

[MattGray]

1. Am I really the best person for the job & will I really produce the best result for every project?

2. Am I really sure that I have full range detailed & accurate monitoring that translates well outside my bedroom studio?

3. Am I in love with myself?

Originally Posted by Chris Lago

Yes, to all three.

If you can answer yes to all three than keep living in your perfect little bubble.. after all ignorance is bliss

[MattGray]

Originally Posted by editronmaximon

If you want to master, and can do it, then do it. If you don't there are plenty of people who will. But you're not going to get a better product using someone else if you are good at it yourself.

And there lies the caveat... who decides you're good at it? the client should but if they're not presented with an outside perspective to compare with your own master how would they ever know? How would you ever know that the mix engineer's mastering job is actually better than what a dedicated mastering engineer could do unless you have the opportunity to directly compare?

A number of professional mastering engineers will be happy if they have the time to provide a free 30-60 sec sample master if it's an EP or Album project. So put a few to the test but let your client decide which is the better mastering job. If it's a budget thing than obviously the cheaper option may be what decides who gets the mastering gig not necessarily the quality.

It's interesting though, most mix engineers won't have access to the same level of monitoring (speakers/amp, room design/acoustics) or the same set of tools as what is found in a professional mastering studio. So whether you can 'master' or not doesn't become the issue, it's whether you have the monitoring/room to hear the full frequency range accurately with enough detail to be able to make the right decisions. Then there is the tools.. without starting the whole analog vs. digital debate lets just say that if you have the right tools you're going to do a better job than having the wrong set of tools be it digital, analog or a hybrid of both.

[Ben F]

I think the tools are important, but if you know your room and monitoring well enough and how it translates, you can do almost anything with experience.

[The Amplighter]

Is the mastering industry doomed? Or will there always be a needed for the third party master-er?

I notice a lot of the dance producers are going it alone..

the artists in that genre can't sell concert tickets or book shows at dive bars. whoever did gaga's new album just snagged 99.99% of the market.

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by daguv

Is the mastering industry doomed? Or will there always be a needed for the third party master-er?

I notice a lot of the dance producers are going it alone..

Dance producers are not going alone just on mastering, but on mixing, recording, everything. And this is not something new, back in '97 or 98 when i had my Goa Trance phase, people were already doing this, in fact i cant remember of anyone back then getting their tracks mixed or mastered by someone else, unless they went to vinyl which was something not very common for Goa Trance albums/songs.

[Adam Dempsey]

You can go to one of two bakeries for a great salad roll. Both places may have beautiful, fresh ingredients. Both may be devoid of horrid flouro lighting and offer great coffee. They may even charge the same and use the same brand of butter knives. Are you more likely to return to the one who bothered to ask "what type of bread would you prefer?", or "butter?" from the outset, even if you hadn't considered it yourself?

YSRMV...

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Matt Gray is a real mastering person with a list of credits you can check and a REAL website.

editronmaximon is a poster's name on Gearslutz with no website and no way to check on who he is.

Let's see who would I trust??? to give me good advice???

FWIW and YMMV

[SCDBM]

Thanks Tom, my point exactly.

[LittleJohn]

I dont have anything to add to either side of the debate.

However on a personal note - I always send my stuff to mastering facilities AND I do one of my own.
So far, I always like mine the best, but my clients have never picked mine over the ones that came back from the mastering services. Ever.

I am not focusing on trying to win that competition. There is WAY too much to learn just getting the art documented, and mixed well. Maybe someday.

for now -- I appreciate being able to depend on my mastering 'dudes" for all that backend stuff.

$0.02

[joeaudio]

We must consider what the OP is asking. What does "people" mean.
Record execs, A&R, mixing engineers, independent artists, artists who are signed to a label (be it major or independent) producers?
My clients trust me with their music. This is what they do for a living, isn't it?
I've yet to hear something like "You know what Joe? We're gonna skip the mastering on this one, the mix guys got it."

[Masterer]

I'm booked through the 31st so I figure at least until June.

[arf]

Editronmaximoron,

It's really something to watch you slag a craft that artists, producers, and engineers have come to trust and depend on as a key contributor to their art and careers, and to watch you do with such calibrated vulgarity. It's clear you are a smart dude, you can do it all, so BFD. You made your point.

[shmasterer]

Originally Posted by LittleJohn

I dont have anything to add to either side of the debate.

However on a personal note - I always send my stuff to mastering facilities AND I do one of my own.
So far, I always like mine the best, but my clients have never picked mine over the ones that came back from the mastering services. Ever.

I am not focusing on trying to win that competition. There is WAY too much to learn just getting the art documented, and mixed well. Maybe someday.

for now -- I appreciate being able to depend on my mastering 'dudes" for all that backend stuff.

$0.02

I like your style LJ, working that way seems very educational.

I'm booked til the 31st too.

sh

[fuse]

Originally Posted by joeaudio

We must consider what the OP is asking. What does "people" mean.
Record execs, A&R, mixing engineers, independent artists, artists who are signed to a label (be it major or independent) producers?

Perhaps is that he means the bedroom EDM producers that spend more time on the interwebs hunting down 'vintage' gear because they think that it will make their mixes sound better than actually learning to use their pirated software better in the first place.
Then they find out that using Ozone and FG-X with maximum settings will get their crappy mixes sound just as loud as the rest and will defend their distorted mess on forums with their lives because they think they did a better job.

That's just a guesstimate.
But counter-trolling aside.

It's hard to explain those without the actual experience what the added value of experience can be. In this case it's quite hard to explain it properly because it's not just only tech related but requires a thorough understanding of all aspects in a bigger context.

If you think you can do it yourself it might be worth while to have one track mastered by a pro and you compare it with your result. And don't forget it to compare it on various speakers because most likely your judgement will be clouded by the fact that you've listened to the mix on your own speakers way to many times. And have someone inexperienced listen to it and have him/her explain what he/she thinks of it. At least then you know and don't have to wonder if you can do it better.