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Analogue Mastering
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#31
11th May 2011
Old 11th May 2011
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Lol, Nathan: My little Techno Hippie , you've got some view on the world my my friend lot of anger in there as well

It's quite obvious i did hit a sore spot there no worries about me, or my peers, I am happily focussing on the other 97% of the IDM market.

not everything in life can be replaced by a pirated VSTi and a set of KRK's in a bedroom, maybe you'll be able to appreciate the value of these services once your ready. Most people who are beyond that level already recognized that for themselves
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11th May 2011
Old 11th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCDBM View Post
So yes there might be the bunch of cheapskate teens with their pirated copies of everything they could gather from the net, trying to be produca, promota, DJ and marketing manager at the same time. Those are not my customers, those guys are not prepared to pay for value full stop. They spend their pocketmoney on paying their smartphone subscription and the aggregator for getting their track online and that's it, that's all they spend. This phase will pass, either they will finish their education, find a job and stop producing, or they will find succes and evolve as artist. It would be very tunnel visioned to see this group of producers as the current status quo.....

But they are merely an artifact of this moment in time, just a reflection of current coolness, looking beyond that you still have the more serious artists who are willing to spend on value.
Wow - just wow. So people who choose to self-master are "cheapskate teens with their pirated copies of everything they could gather from the net". Are you sure that's what you meant to say?
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11th May 2011
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No, most certainly not, my point of view that we should not confuse the let's say 3%, with the other 97% who is willing to invest in producing.

A few posts back i talk about value, my point was more that there is group that doesn't appreciate value full stop. And will never shell out for services. That's not a trend, it has always been that way

Then there are tons of others who master themselves, some good, some mediocre, some ehmmm.... At the end of the day it's all about bringing something to the party the artist can't do themselves AND the artist is willing to pay for. If one of the two is not the case, the artist will not spend money on mastering and rather do it themselves.
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11th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCDBM View Post
Lol, Nathan: My little Techno Hippie , you've got some view on the world my my friend lot of anger in there as well

It's quite obvious i did hit a sore spot there no worries about me, or my peers, I am happily focussing on the other 97% of the IDM market.

not everything in life can be replaced by a pirated VSTi and a set of KRK's in a bedroom, maybe you'll be able to appreciate the value of these services once your ready. Most people who are beyond that level already recognized that for themselves
Hey, no anger at all. It might be my poor lack of writing skills. I think I over use the Exclamation mark which could look "Angry"!!!!!!!!!! ee

I can assure you in no way do I have any anger towards anyone or about any of these points that you raise.

However I was going to say that maybe you mentioning the fact that people are cheapskates raises an eyebrow in my book about how your feeling. maybe that mirror is telling you something.

Just lets focus on the cool stuff and not about calling or grouping people in to terms like "Cheapskate".Just no need.
#35
11th May 2011
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imho great engineers are important and that's not going to be replaced by plugins/presets diy mastering/mixing.

Yes, there are those that have the talent to mix to consistent level that doesn't require mastering. The work flow is different for each engineer and nothing set in stone.

I'd say that the Mixing Engineer has a bigger role to play in the final quality of a production/mix. Great mixes rarely need much done during mastering.

On the other hand, no mastering engineer can rescue a bad mix either - they can however try to make it better. Or they might just advice their clients to remix it.

If you can't mix well, u definitely won't be able to master.

Mastering is an art form, trying balance elements by altering the stereo stem.


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11th May 2011
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True, I don't see it as a problem either, it's merely an artifact. All positive vibes here. Just brought it to the table to share some perspective, i mean spend a night on Soundcloud, subscribe to some groups and note the amount of releases flood into your inbox, talk to some of these guys on chat and you'll get the picture quite quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Vinall View Post
Hey, no anger at all. It might be my poor lack of writing skills. I think I over use the Exclamation mark which could look "Angry"!!!!!!!!!! ee

I can assure you in no way do I have any anger towards anyone or about any of these points that you raise.

However I was going to say that maybe you mentioning the fact that people are cheapskates raises an eyebrow in my book about how your feeling. maybe that mirror is telling you something.

Just lets focus on the cool stuff and not about calling or grouping people in to terms like "Cheapskate".Just no need.
#37
11th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCDBM View Post
No, most certainly not, my point of view that we should not confuse the let's say 3%, with the other 97% who is willing to invest in producing.

A few posts back i talk about value, my point was more that there is group that doesn't appreciate value full stop. And will never shell out for services. That's not a trend, it has always been that way

Then there are tons of others who master themselves, some good, some mediocre, some ehmmm.... At the end of the day it's all about bringing something to the party the artist can't do themselves AND the artist is willing to pay for. If one of the two is not the case, the artist will not spend money on mastering and rather do it themselves.
Totally Agree. You guys rock!!!

FYI: I've produced, mixing and released over 250 12" records to which I've used mastering (The Exchange Or Metropolis & others) on 97% of them.

The thing I was raising is "I can afford" to because Im blessed to be successful! I also can master my own stuff and get the amazing results too, unless vinyl is being cut then no option is giving.

You might wanna take a peek out of the studio window one day or turn the news on to see the world is BROKE DUDE! SO IS EVERYONE CHEAP? That only seems like a very narrow and TBF silly view of the world we all live in. That's all I think was trying to be said here. All artist if given the choice would preffer to master of course, but most artist not very well off.
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11th May 2011
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that's why in my case i have very reasonable pricing and undisputed satisfaction guarantee You either pay for quality, or pay nothing! and i'll let u be the judge of that, not me I'm sure others have simillar "no risk for the artists" models as well.

Makes it quite interesting, because it's seperates the "value" from the "budget" argument. I actually think a lot of artist will find value, but the budget is the show stopper.

also often the labels are expected to take care of the mastering and in EDM you see a lot of the "label managers" just squashing the release through Ozone in order to save costs. Artists then pay themselves in order to have a decent master and not have the track ruined by the label.
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11th May 2011
Old 11th May 2011
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For me as budgets get smaller I'm sending less stuff to mastering.

On budget material I'd rather have another $1500 on the mix/tracking end of things than to have that go towards mastering. I'm fully capable of getting my mixes loud without much damage and adding a little top end sheen. If I can make a master that's 90% as good but in turn get more time to improve the mix, the overall product comes out better.

Obviously when you're paying 50k on a major label mix getting some awesome mastering is totally worth it. But when you're trying to spread 10k across the tracking/mixing/mastering of a record it just doesn't make sense to put too much in the finalization of it when you've already skimped on the making of it.
#40
11th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCDBM View Post
that's why in my case i have very reasonable pricing and undisputed satisfaction guarantee You either pay for quality, or pay nothing! and i'll let u be the judge of that, not me I'm sure others have simillar "no risk for the artists" models as well.

Makes it quite interesting, because it's seperates the "value" from the "budget" argument. I actually think a lot of artist will find value, but the budget is the show stopper.

also often the labels are expected to take care of the mastering and in EDM you see a lot of the "label managers" just squashing the release through Ozone in order to save costs. Artists then pay themselves in order to have a decent master and not have the track ruined by the label.
Again I totally agree with brother & also respect your ideas on pricing, that's def a great look.

However. Quality doesn't come from monetary value. It comes from Passion and love for your trade. The only price is time and time is only another word for experience. So how cool is that!!?
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11th May 2011
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Interesting, so you say mastering is not worth 5% of your budget, if 10K represents an album? of even 1% if 10K represents a single release?

that's a hard sell then. Have your mastering experiences been that bad? or are just just that good that you can get 90% of the finished track potential yourself?

Ofcouse time on the mix is time well spend, no arguing there, but spending that much and then don't asign budget to get the most out of the track, don't know man...

Quote:
Originally Posted by planet red View Post
For me as budgets get smaller I'm sending less stuff to mastering.

On budget material I'd rather have another $1500 on the mix/tracking end of things than to have that go towards mastering. I'm fully capable of getting my mixes loud without much damage and adding a little top end sheen. If I can make a master that's 90% as good but in turn get more time to improve the mix, the overall product comes out better.

Obviously when you're paying 50k on a major label mix getting some awesome mastering is totally worth it. But when you're trying to spread 10k across the tracking/mixing/mastering of a record it just doesn't make sense to put too much in the finalization of it when you've already skimped on the making of it.
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11th May 2011
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Agreed, very ZEN BTW like your "Edge of Expansion" Album

EDIT: Where does that leave talent, skills and gear? .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Vinall View Post
However. Quality doesn't come from monetary value. It comes from Passion and love for your trade. The only price is time and time is only another word for experience. So how cool is that!!?
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#43
11th May 2011
Old 11th May 2011
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Self mastering is like cutting your own hair.



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#44
11th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCDBM View Post
Agreed, very ZEN BTW like your "Edge of Expansion" Album

EDIT: Where does that leave talent, skills and gear? .....
Thanks man!! Glad you enjoyed it. 8)

It still leaves us with talent, skill & gear!! But self improvement is built into us all, specially when passion & love is the drive force. so it will always rise to the surface, uknow?

Let me ask you this & of course others...But what would you do if there was no such thing as money? When one really looks into that deeply enough it becomes really clear. I know it puts a smile on my face everytime I do
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11th May 2011
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Live my dream as i am doing now: Mastering (i REALLY REALLY LOVE my job) just can't get enough of the happy people and the appraisals and recognition.

And produce like i am doing now: the odd remix and a few projects per year just for fun and to stay connected, don't need to make money with them. It's also not my forte, i'm more engineer than artist

I'm turing 41 this year, have been producing for more than 25 years, starting on a C64 tracker. I've always been into gear, made some side steps to CAR stereo (now there is another over the top hobby for ya) worked in IT but just love audio engineering and playing with gear. Now finally being able to provide an income via my studio.
#46
11th May 2011
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we are near the bottom. it will always be used when it adds actual (meaning $$$) value to a project. not just in trems of 'the sound' but in terms of the work flow/economics of those involved.

there always have been and always will be those few who can 'do it all' and produce a good product..... and there will always be those that do it all and produce crap.. i fall somewhere in between.
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#47
11th May 2011
Old 11th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCDBM View Post
Live my dream as i am doing now: Mastering (i REALLY REALLY LOVE my job) just can't get enough of the happy people and the appraisals and recognition.

And produce like i am doing now: the odd remix and a few projects per year just for fun and to stay connected, don't need to make money with them. It's also not my forte, i'm more engineer than artist

I'm turing 41 this year, have been producing for more than 25 years, starting on a C64 tracker. I've always been into gear, made some side steps to CAR stereo (now there is another over the top hobby for ya) worked in IT but just love audio engineering and playing with gear. Now finally being able to provide an income via my studio.
That's really awesome man!!! Makes me very happy to hear people living their dreams & also when they are a year older than me! WEEEEEEE LOL

But Im sure it was your passion and love that got you to the place your at now. I know money is a factor we have to play by for now, but I don't think it's gonna be around much longer.

So here's another crazy idea ... What if we all did work for free!!?

And for now we just got % on the record sales or whatever, like pretty much everyone is kinda doing now days. But image a world where your services were free, you would be up to you ass in Mastering jobs!! Doing what you love but on STEROiDS!!

Uknow what Im getting at... MONEY SUCKS F***** BALLS and shouldn't belong in the arts anymore.

When I started making music commercially, Business almost killed my passion, now I JUST KILL BUSINESS WITH MY PASSION! Not sure really want that means, but it sounded good @8am without sleep and a Venti Drip in hand!.

C64... Ever play SabreWolf? Loved that game
#48
11th May 2011
Old 11th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Vinall View Post
So here's another crazy idea ... What if we all did work for free!!?
How would that work out for you when you go to the grocery store to get food? Or need a new piece of gear for your studio?
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#49
11th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleen View Post
How would that work out for you when you go to the grocery store to get food? Or need a new piece of gear for your studio?
Well as mentioned while we are still living in a Monetary society maybe look into the % on each record. Im not 100% sure of everyones different ways are, im sure we are all pretty smart to find some cool ideas to make it work.

But in the end, We love what we do, people that make gear love what they do so if everyone did what they loved to do I think it would work out fine. All the job like food production and other shitty dangerous jobs we build machine for. Pretty simple really.

We are all about to be outsourced by technology anyway, so why resist. Let the machine take lead.?
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11th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleen View Post
How would that work out for you when you go to the grocery store to get food? Or need a new piece of gear for your studio?
What about that the grocery shop gets the products for free and the gear manufacturer gives it away for free because he gets all parts for free and on and on.. Not really a bad idea actually if you think of it.

Actually all bad things happening to the world have something to do with money or religion.
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#51
11th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by da goose View Post
What about that the grocery shop gets the products for free and the gear manufacturer gives it away for free because he gets all parts for free and on and on.. Not really a bad idea actually if you think of it.

Actually all bad things happening to the world have something to do with money or religion.
YAP! It's all in the cards!

It was needed and has served its purpose. Money that is. But now its out dated and doesn't help, only hinder.

Meet everyones basic survival needs, food shelter etc and we would all do things for free, because we all have passions and love for various forms and functions in life. Its evolution at its finest, who are we to question or resist that!?
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11th May 2011
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Just One more crazy idea...Maybe there are people out there that actually like to grow foods and feed people!!! WOW now that's a novel idea!

We all been duped into thinking that we need to out do our neighbour, friends or even family. Competition serves only ego & business. Winners are in fact, clearly losers! I think skills and talent come from the Heart, maybe sparked by Ego at first, but soon that fall way side leaving the real core of passion to drive self improvement. Humans by very nature what to improve, not through monetary gain!
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11th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Vinall View Post
Just One more crazy idea...Maybe there are people out there that actually like to grow foods and feed people!!! WOW now that's a novel idea!

We all been duped into thinking that we need to out do our neighbour, friends or even family. Competition serves only ego & business. Winners are in fact, clearly losers! I think skills and talent come from the Heart, maybe sparked by Ego at first, but soon that fall way side leaving the real core of passion to drive self improvement. Humans by very nature what to improve, not through monetary gain!
I'm not sure I really go very far with this train of thought, but we do run a quasi-Marxist money-free zone sometimes here. Meaning - I master and barter. For example: a jazz bassist was a builder by trade who helped me with my mastering room; a singer was an electrician who still comes and does fiddly soldering that frustrates my clumsy mitts; a whole *band* runs a SE England courier service and take my smaller parcels for free; shame there's no brewers who have urgent need of my services ...

Cheers,

Eric
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11th May 2011
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Anyone fancy trading their Sontec for my groceries?
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11th May 2011
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When you consider that an artist's career is riding on the impression each new release makes, I can't imagine mastering is going away anytime soon other than for vanity projects. A recording is the artist's calling card and not just a generic consumer product.
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#56
11th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_caithness View Post
Anyone fancy trading their Sontec for my groceries?
Maybe they would make you one if you kept them in food. They all have the same needs.

Can you feed them or some tech who could make you one, maybe you could make some food for the parts too.

"TIMEBANK" MAYBE A GOOD WAY FWD
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11th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PBM View Post
I'm not sure I really go very far with this train of thought, but we do run a quasi-Marxist money-free zone sometimes here. Meaning - I master and barter. For example: a jazz bassist was a builder by trade who helped me with my mastering room; a singer was an electrician who still comes and does fiddly soldering that frustrates my clumsy mitts; a whole *band* runs a SE England courier service and take my smaller parcels for free; shame there's no brewers who have urgent need of my services ...

Cheers,

Eric
Man that's great!!

Now who brews beer, grows weed and loves to make music!??
#58
11th May 2011
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Originally Posted by SCDBM View Post
also often the labels are expected to take care of the mastering and in EDM you see a lot of the "label managers" just squashing the release through Ozone in order to save costs. Artists then pay themselves in order to have a decent master and not have the track ruined by the label.
This happened to me the other day. I was really happy how my master turned out but the label wanted it louder and brighter. Now it's a harsh modulated mess. :(
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11th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiljoy View Post
This happened to me the other day. I was really happy how my master turned out but the label wanted it louder and brighter. Now it's a harsh modulated mess. :(
And I thought that was just the new sound of Nz DnB Hope all is well with you guys.
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11th May 2011
Old 11th May 2011
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Ive been Mastering my own "hobby projects" for ages. Im pretty sure im not bad at it, but anything i actually release will be done by a fresh set of ears and in a different environment.
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