Dangerous Music Liaison

[hoop]

Lagerfeldt,

Love to know your opinion of this now that you've had it for a bit.

Any other users had this for some time?

- Kent

[phild]

I've finally ordered one... I have one of everything in the hi-end line that Dangerous Music makes.
It should be arriving soon.

Once it's all installed I'll report back and hopefully answer some questions.

[Strut78]

I have had one installed now for about three months and I have found this to be a great unit. Really versatile, and it has made me re-discover a few pieces of gear that weren't seeing a lot of use previously. The possibilities with the liaison are endless.

I have mine patched into my dangerous master so the insert 2 on the master is bus a on the liaison and insert 3 is buss b. This is the most flexible routing I have found and it let's me completely change the order of gear in the chain as well as drop any piece of gear into ms. It has taken some refining but with this set up, I have found the liaison to be essential to my work flow.

[Lagerfeldt]

Unpacking the Liaison. I'm taking the studio offline tomorrow, and hopefully it'll all pan out ;-)

[inlinenl]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

Unpacking the Liaison. I'm taking the studio offline tomorrow, and hopefully it'll all pan out ;-)

^^ Have Fun ....

[sat159p1]

How much is it in Europe? I haven't seen the prices on their website...

[Lagerfeldt]

It's USD $3,525 (€2.775) including VAT in Denmark, where I am.

I think it's generally $2,800 (€2.200) excluding VAT, but prices vary of course.

[acorneau]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

Unpacking the Liaison. I'm taking the studio offline tomorrow, and hopefully it'll all pan out ;-)

Sorry Holger, but I don't think the Liaison has pan pots.

[ONDRAY]

I know some functions are different, but if you had to get one, would you choose the Manley Backbone or DM Liaison and why?

I mean, the way the DM Master work with the DM Liaison creates a full range of possibilities seeing the DM Master has M/S, but the Backbone has M/S built in. just a thought

[Slug1]

If I had the money, the Dangerous system, although much more expensive seems to also provide much more flexibility. With the backbone, m/s is on inserts 2 and 3. So if I want compressors to almost always be first in my chain, but only want to use m/s on eq I kind of have a problem with the backbone. For the Dangerous, I patch master buss 2 into liaison a, and master buss 3 into liaison b. I can put the compressors into the first three inserts on liaison b and my eqs on the last three inserts of liaison a. Now I can always have compression first with any of the three compressors I want to use, and have any of the three eqs in m/s. That's just one example, but I don't see how you could do that with the backbone. The backbone looks like incredible kit, but the liaison has added a new level of flexibility, albeit at a cost. Backbone $5400, Dangerous Master plus Liaison $7000. That's not chump change. Well at least not for me.

[Lagerfeldt]

Very satisfied so far. Works perfectly.

Played around with some parallel tube equalization, so I sent insert 2 (Gyraf Gyratec XIV) to the parallel loop on the Liaison.

I then cranked up the input gain all the way on the G14 to really get the tubes and transformers going. I added a massive 22k boost with the lowest Q, and blended the signal back in on the Liaison.

Gotta say that's a very nice top saturation trick. After some low end adjustments on the G14 I have very little noticeable phase changes and a very cool stereo and top effect going. Not unlike the effect of the Kush Clariphonic, only wider.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

Very satisfied so far. Works perfectly.

Played around with some parallel tube equalization, so I sent insert 2 (Gyraf Gyratec XIV) to the parallel loop on the Liaison.

I then cranked up the input gain all the way on the G14 to really get the tubes and transformers going. I added a massive 22k boost with the lowest Q, and blended the signal back in on the Liaison.

Gotta say that's a very nice top saturation trick. After some low end adjustments on the G14 I have very little noticeable phase changes and a very cool stereo and top effect going. Not unlike the effect of the Kush Clariphonic, only wider.

cool!!!!

[Lagerfeldt]

It's absolutely rocking. Perfect sonics, perfect tracking, absolutely no coloration or noise. Flawless build quality and operation.

You can insert in any order you want (with the Bus A > B) and add any insert via a parallel blend that can be tapped a various points. There are presets and easy A/B via a buffer - workflow bliss. I think it adds a bit of creative energy and spontaneity to the whole process.

The monitor outs are great for listening at specific places in your chain. Dangerous Music really thought about this unit and I can't recommend it enough, and even the price is great at only $2,800 (or $3,525 in Denmark where I live - ouch).

The only downside was the $1,000 I had to spend on new cabling, but the need for that depends on your existing setup of course. The upside is that I've optimized my entire audio chain to even shorter lengths at the same time.

[Anghello]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

It's absolutely rocking. Perfect sonics, perfect tracking, absolutely no coloration or noise. Flawless build quality and operation.

You can insert in any order you want (with the Bus A > B) and add any insert via a parallel blend that can be tapped a various points. There are presets and easy A/B via a buffer - workflow bliss. I think it adds a bit of creative energy and spontaneity to the whole process.

The monitor outs are great for listening at specific places in your chain. Dangerous Music really thought about this unit and I can't recommend it enough, and even the price is great at only $2,800 (or $3,525 in Denmark where I live - ouch).

The only downside was the $1,000 I had to spend on new cabling, but the need for that depends on your existing setup of course. The upside is that I've optimized my entire audio chain to even shorter lengths at the same time.

Great excitement! Congrats!

BTW I do agree that cable sound may vary as much as some engines in audio editors. Sometimes vary very much! Sometimes not vary at all. Sometimes I use Vovox for mic.. ohlebach for monitoring etc.. but in the end prefer old 10m Adam Hall with no issue for even critical work with perfect result. I was running for custom cabling for a long time and it was beneficial (I thought). But after years I really believe that human ear can’t hear those differences even on PA if cable is properly made. It can add colour but not perfect the sound. There is much more wasted depth in plugs and digital circuits. In fact you can buy few 1k cables and in the end use L2 limiter – same as you dither via converter and use simple 10 bucks balanced xlr. Only really badly made cable can be nut-in-a-but. But if it’s symmetrical, not noisy... its good as most high-end marketing. Its all about physics. And I understand and can imagine what it means to run for perfection. But if you cheek out interconnection inside Leason you would not find gold connections but many many many things that could be done better. But it sound beautiful because of its purpose and distribute signal Milky Way. I hope you get my point right.

Optimazing lenght can mean less noise, faster and more powerfull transition. But its energy.. its like blowing through the tube into the Pepsi bottle and make bubbles.. it does not matter if the tube is 20 or 300 cm .. simply if there is not a hole inside and no fan or matte finish, it will work.. and electricity is way powerfull then air. Digital cables also may vary because in fact its analog signal and there is jitter issue (sometimes).

Sorry to be bit off topic. Just was shoked about pricing of cables. Correct me please if I am wrong.

[Lagerfeldt]

Concerning cables I'm generally more concerned with the quality of the soldering and plugs in terms of durability. I have Mogami 2534 with Neutrik in most of my chain, Oehlbach for a couple of RCA's and van den Hul digital cables. The Mogami cables are all custom so the $1,000 includes the guy who did the soldering - I don't want to do that myself when he's been soldering all his life.

What I did spend a little time on was getting the power right. I didn't initially think too much about the phase, but aligning all the power plugs correctly was important to minimize noise in the system. I had an analyzer running while aligning the power plugs and was succesful in reducing the base noise in the signal chain to -90.1 dBFS at unity. The monitoring chain with the Danfield Monitor2 and the O300D's is virtually noiseless so I've got an extremely quiet setup.

Of course once you insert something like the G14 tube EQ the noisefloor changes quite a bit, but that's more seeing action in parallel now with the Liaison anyway.

[Anghello]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

What I did spend a little time on was getting the power right. I didn't initially think too much about the phase, but aligning all the power plugs correctly was important to minimize noise in the system. I had an analyzer running while aligning the power plugs and was succesful in reducing the base noise in the signal chain to -90.1 dBFS at unity. The monitoring chain with the Danfield Monitor2 and the O300D's is virtually noiseless so I've got an extremely quiet setup.

Yes! Power consumption for units is really important and sensitive! And my units are less noisy and sound much cleaner with proper distributor (with right filter, security, voltage) and supply. I know it’s not secure and risky but I prefer Chinese 250v instead of high-end 220v. The difference is night and day. I did research and spend a hundreds of bucks to find the right simple distributor and filter for monitoring and end up with 20buck 6 outputs China thing against really expancive 4 outs big toy. My equipment works that way for several years now with no issue. What it did?

- Colors on video monitor are brighter with better contrast.
- Preamps are audibly sensitive
- Eq gets lower noise
- Monitoring is punchy (against boomy and moody) with better 3d.

It’s not audible if you hear the gear for the first time. But after few A/B results came out big time. I think it’s all about own experience and it can vary. Better the unit - smaller the difference.

Congrats about -90db! It’s really good. I got some issue with tubes in mine Eq too:( I guess something around -70 but not audible anyway. I saw your picture of Leason and noticed distribution

I have a question. Are there any clicks when you switch units? For example EQ and Compression? Any samples? Can be very helpful to some of us.

[Lagerfeldt]

Originally Posted by Anghello

Congrats about -90db! It’s really good. I got some issue with tubes in mine Eq too:( I guess something around -70 but not audible anyway. I saw your picture of Leason and noticed distribution

About -70 when I kick in the tube gear, same as you.

I have a question. Are there any clicks when you switch units? For example EQ and Compression? Any samples? Can be very helpful to some of us.

Until I got the right power distribution I got a small click on one of the units, but now it's gone. It's not related to the Liaison though. I'll see if I can make an audio sample, that's what you wanted?

[Anghello]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

About -70 when I kick in the tube gear, same as you.


Until I got the right power distribution I got a small click on one of the units, but now it's gone. It's not related to the Liaison though. I'll see if I can make an audio sample, that's what you wanted?

-70 is not audible. I mastered one album with Anamod ATS-1 and noise of master is around -30db or so Still sounds fantastic.

Yep! Samples how Leason works would be amazing. Especially switching compression and eq on master in A/B mode. I guess click is pretty logical because in fact its a simple "cut" and Leason must have fades in and out or quite mute bottom to avoid this issue. I am asking because it could be great experiment to use Compress then EQ on vers and switch to EQ and then Compression on chorus. That’s where this unit can benefit and be valuable.

[Lagerfeldt]

Originally Posted by Anghello

Yep! Samples how Leason works would be amazing. Especially switching compression and eq on master in A/B mode.

I tested flipping EQ > Comp and Comp > EQ which results in a barely audible click peaking at -51 dBFS, which will be masked in most types of music. I'm not sure if this depends on the setup/units in question, but this was with a Crane Song STC-8/M and a Summit EQ-200.

[Anghello]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

I tested flipping EQ > Comp and Comp > EQ which results in a barely audible click peaking at -51 dBFS, which will be masked in most types of music. I'm not sure if this depends on the setup/units in question, but this was with a Crane Song STC-8/M and a Summit EQ-200.

Its quite good!! I knew it could not be perfected in ideal way. I think its about the signal latency. How does it sound? Is there a mute-pause between? Anyway nevermind. Usual editor faders would solve the problem. But its still flexible and could be usefull to make judgments this way. I think eqing before and after can result different settings for units.. and then finding the most optimal one.

Effective huh?

[MainTime]

Mates, please post pics Liaison with open box.

[tomteontour]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

Concerning cables I'm generally more concerned with the quality of the soldering and plugs in terms of durability. I have Mogami 2534 with Neutrik in most of my chain, Oehlbach for a couple of RCA's and van den Hul digital cables. The Mogami cables are all custom so the $1,000 includes the guy who did the soldering - I don't want to do that myself when he's been soldering all his life.

What I did spend a little time on was getting the power right. I didn't initially think too much about the phase, but aligning all the power plugs correctly was important to minimize noise in the system. I had an analyzer running while aligning the power plugs and was succesful in reducing the base noise in the signal chain to -90.1 dBFS at unity. The monitoring chain with the Danfield Monitor2 and the O300D's is virtually noiseless so I've got an extremely quiet setup.

Of course once you insert something like the G14 tube EQ the noisefloor changes quite a bit, but that's more seeing action in parallel now with the Liaison anyway.

being a complete power/electricity "dumbass" myself... what exactly does one do while "alingning power plugs" you mean they all should be on one of the three phases given you are in Europe ?

Kind regards

[Anghello]

Originally Posted by tomteontour

being a complete power/electricity "dumbass" myself... what exactly does one do while "alingning power plugs" you mean they all should be on one of the three phases given you are in Europe ?

Kind regards

Well I am dumass too.

But if my understanding of translation is correct it means correct electricity flow.


When there is a badly done shielding or placement of sensetive equipment the noise is generated. There is invisible electric field between cables, power plugs, supply, gear etc.. even air, water, human and your cat and plants! Everywhere where the electricity comes thru and where can be shared. Imagine you have a laser in night. But when you use it in fog you can see that some light comes around the main aiming. The same is with cables. We dont see it but some energy is around cable. The point is if you arrange the "way" of energy " trip " you can achieve best transmission and minimum distribution loss and noise which can sound like hiss, boom etc.. there is an opinion that molecules can search for each other even on big distances and run away if there is too big concentration. This how nuclear power station works. Maybe this is one of the reasons why our planet exist. Energy cant dissapear! Electricity transforms to something else.. air, water, life, sound waves, wind.. then can be transformed back to electricity. At least thats what God disrcibed to me.

Because energy is not fully understood even in modern day everything is possible - thats what scientists say. I know its very controversial

Back to the studio. example having cabels only in one hight and running them on one wall can eliminate that invisible field in space between cabling. So basically we have room where cables are all around the walls - light, socket etc. In perfect case we have no that "electricity sharing all around your room points" so no field is created. Best way to reduce noise is to align all energy together in one proper distribution way. But its usefull for guitar amp players.. hiss around -40 is hardly noticable.

God bless your music

[Anghello]

Originally Posted by tomteontour

being a complete power/electricity "dumbass" myself... what exactly does one do while "alingning power plugs" you mean they all should be on one of the three phases given you are in Europe ?

Kind regards

Im Dresden has great power distributor with noise filter for 25,90 euro or so in media markt. Made in germany, some very popular company Brennenstuhl. There is 4 sockets only but this is the best distributor I ve tested. Very ballanced and clean - and trust me Ive tested many of them. It has some 5 stars on it and simple word logo with red line around. I started missing second one for preamp and monitoring section A/B with favorite china distributor was not Night and Day. Just more details and less noise in mastering chain but not big issue such is against unfiltered socket of course. So give it a try

[tomteontour]

That enlightened me quite a bit thank you Only thing left is : "aligning" in this case means : bringing all power cables / plugs in a room together in one point ?

( Coming from a guitarist world with single coils I was aware already of the problem of "different masses" like using an outlet with the amp on one phase of the power network while using a second one for the recording gear or floorboard on a second phase is a bummer )

PS : Will go to "Media Markt" next week and check that out

PS 2 : Probably two monts to go before I order my Liaison.. ( to come back to the topic : ) )... Fab Du Pont knows how to make Demos.. I should not tell but most of the time he demos stuff.. it makes me instantly want to check my balance again

[Anghello]

Originally Posted by tomteontour

That enlightened me quite a bit thank you Only thing left is : "aligning" in this case means : bringing all power cables / plugs in a room together in one point ?

( Coming from a guitarist world with single coils I was aware already of the problem of "different masses" like using an outlet with the amp on one phase of the power network while using a second one for the recording gear or floorboard on a second phase is a bummer )

PS : Will go to "Media Markt" next week and check that out

PS 2 : Probably two monts to go before I order my Liaison.. ( to come back to the topic : ) )... Fab Du Pont knows how to make Demos.. I should not tell but most of the time he demos stuff.. it makes me instantly want to check my balance again

Yep Sockets are separate in ideal a placed in one corner.

PS: Try it. Maybe it would work for you as it does for me!