Vinyl mastering RMS

[_barnee]

Hi guys,

My vinyl project is about to be sent to the plant.
i still have worries about the sound. I have received a reference disc recently (but done on a master V1) which sounds not so good.
The mids seems to have vanished, the highs are often distorted.
I have reworked my master to get a V2. Mids were weak in the V1, so I fixed this. I also fixed the highs that were set a bit too loud maybe...

To make the V2, I have used a multiband comp:
the mid band (160Hz-3Khz) is not over compressed but is the main part of the spectrum compressed in the album, the low band is rarely compressed, and the high only compressed during some shhh shhh parts.
When I say compressed, I should add there are also a limiter on each bands.
All this is set to make the sound pleasant, and not seing 8db of gain reduction on the limiter. ;-)

Music once mastered is -14/-12dbFS, some songs are even lower. Probably -16dbFS. And during the loudest part, the RMS level is -10dbFS/-9dbFS.

I have body on this V2, more than the V1.

So, is there any RMS max value to not reach for vinyl transcription? A too loud master could make the vinyl sound distorted in the highs?

I suspect the reference disc I've been sent being a 'metal actetate' because it's heavy. Is the metal/aluminium doing some resonance at some freq?
I have noticed a boost around the 15Khz... Could this be the reason of the distorted sound?

Thanks for your help.
and Happy New Year 2011 all!

[wado1942]

Acetates are not generally references for quality so much as content. Any way, the engineer at the cutter will determine the levels going to the disk, not you.
There's a few tricks you can do to help. You also shouldn't need much compression of any kind. I know the Motown records rarely, if ever, had any compression or limiting on them. I've actually heard quite a few fantastic classical and rock records cut without compression or limiting for that matter. You may just have a sub-par engineer making the disk. One such thing he should be doing is gradually lowering the level as the center of the disk is reached and reducing the extreme high end with a little compensation around 8KHz or so. That way, the levels stay within tolerance without losing perceived clarity. You may want to ask about it if you don't think he's doing a good job.

[_barnee]

Hi wado,

Thanks.
Actually my 'mastering' job was not to make it loud, but to make it sound better. The ideal would have been a remix but the guys don't have access to the multitrack anymore. I had to cut down some resonance in the low mids, and the multiband comp has the only purpose to fix 'too much high here and there'.
This project is meant to be sent to a plant, the acetate disc I received was made from a different guy.

Talking about acetate, should I have to cut drastically the 15Khz freq to prevent resonance? I'd like to get some of my music done on that kind of record.

[Adam Dempsey]

Is this for 12 inch, 33rpm? What are the side lengths?

Being involved in the QC yourself is great but to really be sure, especially if you still have concerns, a test pressing would be the way to go rather than a dub plate/acetate.

[IIIrd]

Originally Posted by Adam Dempsey

Is this for 12 inch, 33rpm? What are the side lengths?

Being involved in the QC yourself is great but to really be sure, especially if you still have concerns, a test pressing would be the way to go rather than a dub plate/acetate.

TP's probably cost less than a dub. The TP will enable you to check the cut and the pressing..two parts to the whole I'm afraid. The cutters work...and the plants work. Get TP's...say a half dozen. If you find a fault on one and it's in the same place on all, you have an issue, if it's only on one..you have one tp thats wrong...so no issue.

[narcoman]

So are you doing some EQing etc yourself and then sending it to a cutter? ie pressing your digital master?

[dietrich10]

hard to give advice without knowing the audio content. any decent cutting engineer should do changes needed to have the music translate correctly to the format

[_barnee]

Hi guys,

Well... Project is a double album 33RPM.
Sides are from 7'00 to 19'30.

My plan is to order 20 test pressings. I want to offer around 5 test pressing copies to 'good fans'.
But I'm not used to the test pressing/check/control/approval process... I mean, if all is ok that's fine: I just approve the test pressing, and the production will come fine.
But if there is something wrong? Is that going to cost me the new cuts?

If you mean me doing specific EQing for the vinyl transcription, I won't do it for the project that will go to the pressing plant. I will let the cut man do that.

+++

But in case of a metal actate project I'd like to get done, I might need to compensate the boost around the 15Khz area... by the way, is that boost normal?

[duomo]

one note to your 15kHz boost: this could also be your truntable catridge. If the input condensator of your phono preamp doesn´t match with your cartridge you get this kind of boost. And many DJ cartridges has a very bad frecquency response ( over +-2dB). So its always good to check the testcut on differnet TTs.
You should always let the cutting studio cut your tests which does the mastercut at the end, because every lathe has its own sound....
good luck .... Moritz

[Twerk]

barnee, check this link for some useful info.

GREAT SOUNDING RECORDS

[Paul Gold]

Originally Posted by wado1942

Acetates are not generally references for quality so much as content.

Huh?

[Fat larry]

Originally Posted by IIIrd

TP's probably cost less than a dub. The TP will enable you to check the cut and the pressing..two parts to the whole I'm afraid. The cutters work...and the plants work. Get TP's...say a half dozen. If you find a fault on one and it's in the same place on all, you have an issue, if it's only on one..you have one tp thats wrong...so no issue.

Is this for 12 inch, 33rpm? What are the side lengths?

Being involved in the QC yourself is great but to really be sure, especially if you still have concerns, a test pressing would be the way to go rather than a dub plate/acetate.

Whilst one tp will cost less than one dub what you guys are forgetting is;
The price for Re-cutting(including the price of a new lacquer)
Re processing the lacquer(Galvanics)
Another set of test pressings
A way around this is to attend the cut and listen to the test cuts that the engineer does, If you cannot attend then request a 12"dub before you comit to lacquer.
And finally, Communicate with the Mastering engineer
Enjoy

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by Paul Gold

Huh?

indeed!

[Gengy]

the lacquer is the best reference disk!.............also too much!

[_barnee]

It seems the guy who cut the acetates has a 'specific setting for mastering/cutting vinyl'. No idea on this secret weapon.

Anyhow, I will contact the guy to see how he cut those acetate discs. Especially to understand why distortion appears on my discs. Not saying it is his fault, but it would be cool to know how to prevent this for future.

++

Concerning the project going to the press, well... my 'new' master got the highs attenuated and sound with more body (mid). I just have to cross fingers, and expect everything will go smooth.

[Fat larry]

Originally Posted by _barnee

It seems the guy who cut the acetates has a 'specific setting for mastering/cutting vinyl'. No idea on this secret weapon.

Anyhow, I will contact the guy to see how he cut those acetate discs. Especially to understand why distortion appears on my discs. Not saying it is his fault, but it would be cool to know how to prevent this for future.

++

Concerning the project going to the press, well... my 'new' master got the highs attenuated and sound with more body (mid). I just have to cross fingers, and expect everything will go smooth.

[Gengy]

Originally Posted by _barnee

It seems the guy who cut the acetates has a 'specific setting for mastering/cutting vinyl'. No idea on this secret weapon.

Anyhow, I will contact the guy to see how he cut those acetate discs. Especially to understand why distortion appears on my discs. Not saying it is his fault, but it would be cool to know how to prevent this for future.

++

Concerning the project going to the press, well... my 'new' master got the highs attenuated and sound with more body (mid). I just have to cross fingers, and expect everything will go smooth.

if so....I pray for you guy!

[_barnee]

Originally Posted by Gengy

if so....I pray for you guy!

Please do.

[_barnee]

By the way, I have just checked my master. The average RMS is in between -16 and -10db. And on very brief loud parts, the max reached is -8db.

The music got quiet and loud parts. The waveform is not squashed.

[Misja]

It's not that hard... Don't make it too loud. That doensn't work on vynil, Renember it's anologue. Put all low freqs in the center up untill 200Hz human ear has trouble identifiying where that comes from anyways. That useally helps. The classic mistake here is to try and make it loud. That doesn't work the medium is totally different from digital media's. Make very sure there isn't too much sub in the master. That will cause a needle to jump out giving random skips. Again the lows should be mono in the center. I can't hammer too much about this. So really do a turrough low end check on the master. And again and tell your client that as well don't aspect a modern RMS rate on a vynil disck. It's just impossible and you and nor client shouldn't want that. What's the point going vynil if the master has to be modern? Those two world just don't mix if you get my drift. For the rest it's basically the same. As always trust your ears. If it sounds right it is right!

Misja

[Misja]

Little secret or not. In those times there was really little to none processing on a mix. This gotta tell you something.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by Misja

... Put all low freqs in the center up untill 200Hz human ear has trouble identifiying where that comes from anyways. ....

This is seriously not true at all. It isn't even true below 80 Hz. with stereo material as opposed to a pan-potted tone.

Elliptical eq. was used way way less than people seem to assume.

[Misja]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

This is seriously not true at all. It isn't even true below 80 Hz. with stereo material as opposed to a pan-potted tone.

Elliptical eq. was used way way less than people seem to assume.

I stand corrected but for vynil it's good practise no? At least to keep subs mono.. Share the knowledge my friend!

[Gengy]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

This is seriously not true at all. It isn't even true below 80 Hz. with stereo material as opposed to a pan-potted tone.

Elliptical eq. was used way way less than people seem to assume.

[Bob Olhsson]

Elliptical eq. is only useful when there is an abnormal amount of low-end in the sides and you are seeking to cut an unusually hot record.

In practice if the bass kick and snare are dead center nothing is gained from ellliptical eq. but worse sound.

[_barnee]

Actually, my master V2 has been made using:

-20Hz Low Cut
-16Khz High Cut

-Everything below 120Hz has been monoed.
Why?
Two drums kicks hardly panned, phasey at times...among other things. I think it is safe to control that from my view instead of letting the cutting guy doing it. I know he can do it, but I'd rather know the amount of treatment on this.

-Everything below 400Hz has been narrowed a bit to avoid phase issues.

-I have a multiband comp running, but not for getting a hot signal. The purpose is to maintain the balance in spectrum throughout the album. I would have prefered to have access to the mixing session, but there is no more... so I had to find tricks. Again there is no over abuse of the multiband comp.

-A tape simulator has been used in the end of the chain, but it shows only a half db of gain reduction... maybe 1 db during the loud parts.

I've tried to disengaged the tape sim, but get same value or so for RMS.

Well, this is the master V2.
In the V1, it was a different approach. Obviously there was way more highs and less mids in the end result, and possibly too much effects chained.
I simplified the process a lot for the V2.

EQ to get rid of some resonances, bass monoed, low band narrowed, multiband for spectrum control, tape simulator to slightly glue everything.

[Paul Gold]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

In practice if the bass kick and snare are dead center nothing is gained from ellliptical eq. but worse sound.

True but if there isn't much low end in the side channel the EE doesn't make much difference either way. Unfortunately the time you hear the EE the most is when you need it.

[Misja]

Tjeez i never talked about an EeQ. Just subs straight Mono. We don't want the needle to go skippy do we? For the rest just not too loud. And the lower the frequency the faster the needle goes skippy. So a high pass at 20 should be ok. Record players and the old HiFi system go hand in hand in that perspective.

You mastering folks can be a bit too precise while happily screwing up music... Rara to mee.