SACD engineers: here's how to make an SACD-R for home testing BEFORE glass mastering!
samuelaudio
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6th December 2010
Old 6th December 2010
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SACD engineers: here's how to make an SACD-R for home testing BEFORE glass mastering!

I have been sitting on this info for a while and recently shared it with one engineer working with SACD. He was delighted as he has the same frustration that many SACD masterers have which is that the only way you can normally see how your SACD sounds in the target environment is to send it off (fingers crossed!) to the expensive glass masterer to get a fully produced SACD demo disc (usually at the cost of at least a small run!).

Well here's how to skip the glass masterer and create and play back your own SACD-R outside of the DSD mixing room.

Simply burn the disc image file (created in Superauthor etc) to any type of blank DVD...and the key is, to play it on one of the following SACD players:

Oppo BDP-80
Oppo BDP-83
Oppo BDP-83SE
Denon 2910
Denon 3910
Denon 5910
Sony BDP-S370
Sony BDP-S470
Sony BDP-S570
Sony BDP-S770
[I THINK] Sony SCD-333ES
[I THINK] some old pioneer units, though I have not verified.

The disc will be treated, and played just like a normal SACD. Why? Because these players all have a 'fault' in their design whereby they don't check for pit signal processing.

So there....just grab one of those Denons and you're good to go. There may be other players that also be tricked into playing non-'authorised' SACDs, with some tweaking of how the disc is burnt (like burning with a different block size combined with other tweaks maybe) but I have a Denon 3910 so I haven't taken much interest in going further at this point .

Wish I shared this info with you sooner and I hope it is useful to anyone who works in SACD - and their clients!.

Cheers
24-96 Mastering
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6th December 2010
Old 6th December 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samuelaudio View Post
I have been sitting on this info for a while and recently shared it with one engineer working with SACD. He was delighted as he has the same frustration that many SACD masterers have which is that the only way you can normally see how your SACD sounds in the target environment is to send it off (fingers crossed!) to the expensive glass masterer to get a fully produced SACD demo disc (usually at the cost of at least a small run!).

Well here's how to skip the glass masterer and create and play back your own SACD-R outside of the DSD mixing room.

Simply burn the disc image file (created in Superauthor etc) to any type of blank DVD...and the key is, to play it on one of the following SACD players:

Denon 5910
Denon 3910
Denon 2910
I THINK the Sony SCD-333ES
I THINK some old pioneer units, though I have not verified.

The disc will be treated, and played just like a normal SACD. Why? Because these players all have a 'fault' in their design whereby they don't check for pit signal processing.

So there....just grab one of those Denons and you're good to go. There may be other players that also be tricked into playing non-'authorised' SACDs, with some tweaking of how the disc is burnt (like burning with a different block size combined with other tweaks maybe) but I have a Denon 3910 so I haven't taken much interest in going further at this point .

Wish I shared this info with you sooner and I hope it is useful to anyone who works in SACD - and their clients!.

Cheers
Thanks for that, it's very much appreciated! I have a Denon 2910 here and would love to try it. Can you elaborate at how you generate / burn the disc image?
samuelaudio
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7th December 2010
Old 7th December 2010
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Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering View Post
Thanks for that, it's very much appreciated! I have a Denon 2910 here and would love to try it. Can you elaborate at how you generate / burn the disc image?
Take the finalised DDP created by SuperAuthor, and write the image to blank DVD.

Really it seems to work with any type of DVD+/-R/W media, and using any old image burning program like say Imgburn - works fine on my 3910.

Do excuse, I'm a bit new with some of what's happening here - but it seems you can often rename DDP to ISO right? Although in this case the renamed "ISO" may not be openable in most image-reading programs (although it looks like it can in UltraISO, when you load the image into the program!), but you can still just burn the ISO off with again, Imgburn...(or the original DDP directly to data disc if there's software that can do so - like probably gear pro mastering or something)

I bet you would figure out more than me in no time...and I'd appreciate any findings you find too, thanks!
dcollins
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7th December 2010
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Teams of Sony attorneys are meeting as we speak.


DC
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7th December 2010
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I can't author SACD images (wish I could) but if anybody wants to send me an SACD-R to test in my old Pioneer, I'll gladly get back to you.
#6
7th December 2010
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Hi Stephen,

Send me your mailing address via PM and I'll get you something to try...

To the original poster; Thanks for the trick...I'm curious to see if it works here. I have image verification tools (including CMF image playback) so it isn't strictly the 'only way' to test an SACD project but it sure would be handy for clients to check it out.

Best,

Graemme


Quote:
Originally Posted by wado1942 View Post
I can't author SACD images (wish I could) but if anybody wants to send me an SACD-R to test in my old Pioneer, I'll gladly get back to you.
samuelaudio
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7th December 2010
Old 7th December 2010
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Originally Posted by zenmastering View Post
To the original poster; Thanks for the trick...I'm curious to see if it works here. I have image verification tools (including CMF image playback) so it isn't strictly the 'only way' to test an SACD project but it sure would be handy for clients to check it out.
ah yes true that. I'm also curious to see whether it's all a success across the board or if there are any kinks with some ways of doing it/some players. Denon seemed to quietly fix the 'problem' with the CI firmware/hardware upgrades and from the next xx30 series onwards. But I would guess that some other ancient models might ignore PSP too...

It honestly is a little surprising that this trick hasn't been discovered until now...

There's all sorts of interesting anomolies/abnormalities when you closely inspect some of the very earliest gear/media of an optical disc format...especially back then when dvd and such enterprising copy protection systems were so new...but only now is this coming out..
#8
8th December 2010
Old 8th December 2010
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SACD

I hate to add this at the end of the posts however, What are the specs for SACD? how much dynamic range does it support, how is it much different then a normal master disk?
huejahfink
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8th December 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossco_210786 View Post
I hate to add this at the end of the posts however, What are the specs for SACD? how much dynamic range does it support, how is it much different then a normal master disk?
Super Audio CD - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cellotron
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9th December 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossco_210786 View Post
I hate to add this at the end of the posts however, What are the specs for SACD?
A basic overview is also at http://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/SACD.html

Quote:
how much dynamic range does it support,
nominally 120dB (versus 96dB for CD's 16bit PCM, and 144dB for 24bit PCM) - although actual performance will indeed vary from this.

Quote:
how is it much different then a normal master disk?
Mainly in the use of DSD rather than PCM, and support for 5.1 surround sound rather than just 2 channel stereo.

It should be noted that SACD can not be replicated off of master discs but must be received by the plant as a data image (generally placed on DLT or FTP'd).

Best regards,
Steve Berson
samuelaudio
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9th December 2010
Old 9th December 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossco_210786 View Post
I hate to add this at the end of the posts however, What are the specs for SACD? how much dynamic range does it support, how is it much different then a normal master disk?
i also don't want my thread veering offtrack but since it's mentioned: a great link is: techsacd. lots of rare technical info not compiled to such an extent anywhere else that I've noticed...
dcollins
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9th December 2010
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Originally Posted by samuelaudio View Post
i also don't want my thread veering offtrack but since it's mentioned: a great link is: techsacd. lots of rare technical info not compiled to such an extent anywhere else that I've noticed...
techsacd10

I see. 24 bits was not enough, yet one can do it.


DC
#13
13th December 2010
Old 13th December 2010
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Q error and "process gain

Quote:
Originally Posted by rossco_210786 View Post
I hate to add this at the end of the posts however, What are the specs for SACD? how much dynamic range does it support, how is it much different then a normal master disk?

SACD uses DSD and, although the bit rate is faster than 24/96 LPCM, the SNR is about 28 dB worse. Also, there's heavy low pass filtering which is to protect loudspeakers from the noise that is shaped by this process.

Ideal LPCM converter performance can be determined from the following formula:

SNR = 6.02N + 1.76dB (+ "process gain" created by digital band-limiting. This is computed
with 10log10 (Fs/2•BW), over the bandwidth, BW.)


So, the CD has over 98 dB FPSNR.

The DVD-Audio can have over 148 dB FPSNR.

There is an excellent .pdf on LPCM performance written by Walt Kester for Analog Devices, entitled MT-001 Tutorial.


Also, Walter Jung writes, "For a given signal bandwidth, doubling the [LPCM] sampling frequency increases the SNR by 3 dB."



Cheersø,
Laarsø
samuelaudio
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14th December 2010
Old 14th December 2010
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Update: the following four 2010 Blu-ray player models (which are SACD-capable) also ignore Pit Signal Processing, and thus can play SACD-R.

Have tested and confirmed.

Sony BDP-S370
Sony BDP-S470
Sony BDP-S570
Sony BDP-S770
arf
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14th December 2010
Old 14th December 2010
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arf
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Many SACD players transcode to PCM before hitting the DAC. Transcoding can be totally transparent to the original DSD, but it begs the question of why bother with DSD in the first place. As on old friend once said, DSD is a solution looking for a problem.
dcollins
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14th December 2010
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Originally Posted by arf View Post
Many SACD players transcode to PCM before hitting the DAC. Transcoding can be totally transparent to the original DSD, but it begs the question of why bother with DSD in the first place. As on old friend once said, DSD is a solution looking for a problem.
Bruno had a quote that I've always liked:

"In terms of practical usefulness it's more like putting the world's population on a spaceship to colonise a new planet without first checking if there's water and oxygen on it, and if the conditions on earth were really so bad we needed to leave it."
--


DC
807Recordings
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14th December 2010
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Originally Posted by arf View Post
Many SACD players transcode to PCM before hitting the DAC. Transcoding can be totally transparent to the original DSD, but it begs the question of why bother with DSD in the first place. As on old friend once said, DSD is a solution looking for a problem.
That sounds more like a quote for ISDN.
#18
14th December 2010
Old 14th December 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arf View Post
Many SACD players transcode to PCM before hitting the DAC..
Surely there are some that don't? If one is after audiophile quality some research and testing would be a must when setting up a system...

I work with DSD and DXD (352.8kHz PCM) every day and there's definitely a difference between the two formats...
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14th December 2010
Old 14th December 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
Bruno had a quote that I've always liked:
.... and if the conditions on earth were really so bad we needed to leave it."
-
DC
yes they are... and are getting worse... for audiophiles anyway...

tape, vinyl, CD, DAT, mp3 ....evolution?
acorneau
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15th December 2010
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I would see DSD as a good capture system for mixes as a replacement for 1/2" (or 1/4") analog or lesser WAV or AIFF files. No need for processing in DSD, but as a nice playback system for the ME using analog gear anyway.
Cellotron
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15th December 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acorneau View Post
I would see DSD as a good capture system for mixes as a replacement for 1/2" (or 1/4") analog or lesser WAV or AIFF files. No need for processing in DSD, but as a nice playback system for the ME using analog gear anyway.
This absolutely makes the most sense to me as well. I have very limited experience with DSD but a couple of folks whose ears I trust have stated numerous times that they definitely love it just for the purpose you describe. I would invest in something like the Korg MR2000S in a heart beat as a playback transport if I just simply had a client who actually ever wanted to provide me with a reasonable amount of work from DSD. To date I've never gotten even a single inquiry as to whether I can work from DSD though!

Best regards,
Steve Berson
acorneau
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15th December 2010
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Originally Posted by Cellotron View Post
To date I've never gotten even a single inquiry as to whether I can work from DSD though!
Me either. Oh well...
Cellotron
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15th December 2010
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Originally Posted by acorneau View Post
Me either. Oh well...
Yeah - compare this to near daily inquiries as to whether I can cut lacquers. For which I just got a Fairchild lathe which hopefully I'll have restored in a few months. So if the inquiries come I do indeed take action.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
lu432
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23rd January 2011
Old 23rd January 2011
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I would love to work in DSD or DXD, never even had an opportunity to listen to it. If you want to encourage the format is not worth while if and only if a client pays for a standard master to maybe give him a free version of the same song in DSD one time offer? Just to get people enticed about the format?
#25
7th February 2011
Old 7th February 2011
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Hi all, this is my first post.

I would ask someone, if can send me a sacd disc image to test in my vaio pc and i've very glad to report back.
Thanks in advance.

P.S
Escuse my bad english.
samuelaudio
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7th February 2011
Old 7th February 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by @YAGO View Post
Hi all, this is my first post.

I would ask someone, if can send me a sacd disc image to test in my vaio pc and i've very glad to report back.
Thanks in advance.

P.S
Escuse my bad english.
What Vaio software do you think could play it?

None of it as far as I can see can play SACD images. Only DSD files, or DSD Disc.
#27
7th February 2011
Old 7th February 2011
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@samuelaudio, thank you for your answer.

My pc is Vaio VGN-AW290, equipped with "DSD Direct® Player"
Here is more info :

DSD Direct Player
this is important "Not only can you listen to SA-CDs and enjoy their superior sound quality, but you can also record your own DSD discs"
#28
29th March 2011
Old 29th March 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by @YAGO View Post
My pc is Vaio VGN-AW290, equipped with DSD Direct Player ... "Not only can you listen to SA-CDs and enjoy their superior sound quality, but you can also record your own DSD discs"
That myth has recently been debunked.
dcollins
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29th March 2011
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Originally Posted by The 7th Taylor View Post
That myth has recently been debunked.
It's a pretty technical explanation though:
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#30
29th March 2011
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DSD is in its place in one (1) application: Mastering from analogue. When the recording chain is completely analogue, you can feed the audio from the analogue mastering into a DSD A/D converter and cut that signal straight onto a disc without any further processing. It is in this application that DSD can be viewed as pretty transparent. When you convert the signal twice, however (such as when using a DSD recorder as the tracking medium), the second conversion is no longer transparent, due to the HF noise present in the source signal hitting a second analogue deltasigma modulator.
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