Cracking those transients

[Dave Rose]

Tell the ME exactly what you just said there and they will be able to advise you best on what to do and whether the transients are too loud. Personally I prefer them to be louder rather than drowned out, much more you can do here to minimise them rather than attempting to salvage something that isn't really there in the first place.

[Dave Rose]

Just to add to that, I'm sure you could get some interesting pumpy sounds from the method you mentioned, but is this always desirable? Using eq on your bass (for the kick) and guitars (for the snare) should allow them to sit in the mix without having to force them through. Maybe pan your guitars to leave some space for the snare down the middle, or notch out some of the low mids where the thunk of the snare is. Likewise with the kick, maybe a low shelf cut on the bass will create some room for the weight of the kick to come through, and a compressor with a relatively fast attack might help to bring out the beater click if needs be.

[bgrotto]

I don't mean to be dense, but have you tried EQing other parts of the arrangement to clear up some space for the drums? For example, the thickest of thick guitars can usually stand a cut somewhere in the low mids, which can clear up some space for the fundamental of the snare drum, plus give the bass room to breath without having to turn it up as loud.

And some form of high passing can open up the bottom end for the kick and toms. And maybe pulling back some of the upper midrange fizziness can leave room for the attack of the kit (usually opens up some space for vox, too!). And a low pass can open up the top for the cymbals.

You can also punch a whole in the bottom end of the bass track to make room for the kick. Or clear out some midrange to make room for the guitars, so they don't have to be up as loud, so that the drums speak over them more easily.

Or maybe some more aggressive compression on other elements of the arrangement to decrease their transient material, thus creating a contrast between them and the transient-rich drums.

Or, you could take a different approach entirely, and squash the transients of the drums a bit, compressing them for increased sustain and body, which will give them a bit more (albeit, different) presence in the mix.

I often find that added sustain (whether by compression or by working the room mics and/or OHs) does more to push the drums through a loud mix than working to emphasize the transient, which can be severely undone when the mastering guy works his loudening magic.

[Greg Reierson]

The key to getting drums and bass to cut through a dense mix is upper harmonic content. Make sure they all have plenty of top. You should be able to hear what kind of heads are on the drums and what kinds of strings are on the bass.

I see a lot of mixes where the bass and kick are dull, the snare is flat, the vocals are sibilant and the cymbals are too bright. It's an impossible situation. Fixing one makes the others worse. The key is balance.

GR

[sHOWpONY]

Thanks for the feedback on this.
I pay a lot of attention to all the points raised above, in my mixes.
My EQing is mostly subtractive; LF rolloffs, HF cut or lift and subtractive sharp Q cuts. I tend to roll off the bass slightly higher than the kick so I still get a nice fat bottom end with the kick coming through, rather than a big unruly rumble from too much sustained bass instrumentation.
I'm always paying attention to the 200hz-ish, 400Hz region and I generally follow an LCR panning system when the mixes get dense. i.e. in the chorus. So my kicks and snares theoretically have plenty of room as they're straight down the middle. I understand the use of compression...So, I feel I'm fairly well under control in these areas. And then I break all these rules when the song calls for it.

In addition to my 'snap' buss, I also have a 'squash' buss that I sometimes send the kick/snare to. Sometimes the kick and snare sends go to both snap and squash busses and sometimes one or the other. As one of you mentioned above, getting a snare to stand out is as much about transients as is about sustain, and so i regularly add 'length' to my snare by sending to the heavily squashed 'squash' buss.
Truth is, I can get my mixes sounding fine using these methods, as long as I'm mastering them myself.

So, are we saying that it's not unusual for an ME to get a final mix with average program levels of around, say -15 dB rms with kick and snare transients peaking at 0?

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by sHOWpONY

So, are we saying that it's not unusual for an ME to get a final mix with average program levels of around, say -15 dB rms with kick and snare transients peaking at 0?

This or several dB lower still (for both RMS and peak) is not unusual at all, for me.

[lord_bunny]

last mix i did i loved what i got the drums to do.. but later on decided it was just a little too squished and the kick and snare weren't poking enough and the room "wash" was a little too prominent.

I have the SPL Transient Designer plug and a little goes a long way on drum bus. In addition I also have the drum bus happening but if i feel like I need a little uncompressed Kick and Snare, I just run a send to the master bus from the track itself... again doesn't take much.

[OTA]

Sorry for the thread ressurection!! I was just trawling for some refresher info on this topic and this thread kinda nailed it.

I have been finalising a rock(ish) track mix. The mix approach is a little out of character for me, in the sense that i'm doing my utmost to NOT squash everything till it sounds like a mastered big name CD. This is going off to a good mastering house, and i want to supply an A1 mix (prob will end up A2 or 3, but hey, what can ya do...). Normally i am far more creative with compression, but this is a collaboration and the final mix is my responsibility.

Anyhoo, i've noticed in temp 2buss bounced waveforms that the snare and kick are massively represented in the transient department. I feel its the alternate style of mixing i'm on that is the root cause.

The K/Sn transients stick out dramatically...

but i read this:

Originally Posted by Adam Dempsey

This or several dB lower still (for both RMS and peak) is not unusual at all, for me.

in response to this:

Originally Posted by sHOWpONY

So, are we saying that it's not unusual for an ME to get a final mix with average program levels of around, say -15 dB rms with kick and snare transients peaking at 0?

When you say 'Not unusual'... Are you saying its okay for this? Ideal or not ideal is? tame it a bit, or alot?

I'm going to experiment a bit now with pulling them in a bit, hopefully without hearing any comp/limit artifacts.

There was something that bothered me on this mix, and i'm starting to think this is affecting the sound, hell even the groove, in a very subtle and unpleasing way.

Thanks!!

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by OTA

When you say 'Not unusual'... Are you saying its okay for this? Ideal or not ideal is? tame it a bit, or alot?

I'm going to experiment a bit now with pulling them in a bit, hopefully without hearing any comp/limit artifacts.

There was something that bothered me on this mix, and i'm starting to think this is affecting the sound, hell even the groove, in a very subtle and unpleasing way.

Hi,
I was simply saying that it's not unusual to receive rock mixes with peak level (due to anything) at several dB below full scale, even as far as -10dBFS or more. Really, it's all about the sound of the thing. If it feels weird to you but the level is good, maybe it's just the attack on the drums compression? (but too short can really kill a track's energy/vibe).

Originally Posted by OTA

This is going off to a good mastering house, and i want to supply an A1 mix (prob will end up A2 or 3, but hey, what can ya do...).

What you can do is keep mixing, keep referencing, and keep mixing until you're really happy with it. Your mastering engineer will love you for it.
If really in doubt, speak with him/her and maybe supply alternate mixes (-1, -0.5, +0.5, +1dB etc for that part).

When there's any doubt over mix levels, most of us would much rather receive communication and alternate mixes rather than be stuck with a problem mix or having to work from stems. (The latter has certainly saved projects but is generally a last resort and, personally, never specifically requested other than by the client).

[OTA]

Cool, thanks for the response Adam

I guess what i was wondering is: 'what is a good/ideal dynamic range' (between peak & rms) in the M.E's perspective..? While im sure theres no hard and fast rules, when does too much in the point of difference become troublesome?

I would normally smash the snare till i liked it and be done with it, but for this particular track, the snare basically IS the song. i dont want to leave the ME no room to manouvre, and get an unfavorable reaction & result.

I can easily understand the common story of the other way around, i.e. far too pinned already, all you can do is shrug ur shoulders But apart from my own mastering experience i've never talked with an ME about peak vs rms range, so to speak (not in regards to traditional rock anyway), and learned what your general view is. I guess i've always assumed better to be peaky, than soggy weetbix...

I've shaved some of the peaks off now, & am feeling somewhat secure that an ME wouldn't cry 'Ye gads laddy!!' Some test mastering has shown they should pull into line.

Yeh rendering the 2track without master plugs i've got oodles of room...

I noticed also Adam, your sig in your post above mine, i.e. working @ Jack the Bears... Oddly enough this is one of the choices i had in mind. I'm just around the corner Still there?

Cheers

drew

[OTA]

I might just add that these transients i'm going on about are very much almost too quick to hear, really. Mostly snare, secondly, kick... Its hard to know if the comp/limit settings are working until a bounce and look see... (yes, yes, USE MY EARS!! )

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by OTA

I noticed also Adam, your sig in your post above mine, i.e. working @ Jack the Bears... Oddly enough this is one of the choices i had in mind. I'm just around the corner Still there?

Yep!

[Everbeatz]

I think the main culprit of that 'excessive K/Sn transient info' is treating kick and snare the wrong way in terms of compression, balances and paralleling too much. People are using parallel compression to help K/Sn to poke through and they end up having large peaks all over. Having that kind of 'problem' going into the master bus limiter won't sound great at all. From my experience peaks should be controlled/tamed before that. You're also helping a fellow ME later

Also, if you lean too much on close mics, which are usually highly dynamic material, and compress those the wrong way(attack time) you're making it more dynamic with even larger peaks. Add OHs to that, room mics, parallel compression for 'snap', transient designer and you're gonna have problems.

Tape was a great thing to compress drums and to tame peaks naturally.

[Jerry Tubb]

Originally Posted by Greg Reierson

The key is balance

The answer to many things audio and otherwise!

Cheers, JT

[OTA]

Originally Posted by OTA

I might just add that these transients i'm going on about are very much almost too quick to hear, really. Mostly snare, secondly, kick... Its hard to know if the comp/limit settings are working until a bounce and look see... (yes, yes, USE MY EARS!! )

Okay, so it seems that trusty old Sony Oxford's Transmod has done the business, where nothing else i own would: super, super subtle wipe of the peak-i-ness.

The snare still feels intact, and the body hasnt raised its poorly toned head.

Why do i always forget how damn good the Oxford stuff is...

[huejahfink]

Transmod is great, but in the end I plumped for Waves Trans-X (cos it was LOTS cheaper and it also has a multiband version).
The Voxengo Transgainer is also interesting although quite different. Transgainer is interesting since you can bias the detection to focus more on high or low peaks as the material requires it, whilst still operating without a crossover.

[jonathan jetter]

Originally Posted by OTA

I would normally smash the snare till i liked it and be done with it, but for this particular track, the snare basically IS the song. i dont want to leave the ME no room to manouvre, and get an unfavorable reaction & result.

you should probably mix it how you like it. *especially* if "the snare IS the song"

as long as you do it well, the ME won't mind.

each person works differently, of course, but the more decisions i make on my own, and the less i depend on mastering, the happier everyone is.

[kingtoad]

One thing I have found to work quite well is using a good tape emulation plugin on the individual drum tracks, driving them differently depending on the source (snare drums can usually take a lot more drive than kicks, for example). This tames the very first "click" or "pop" of the transient a little without destroying the subsequent punch. I have used it with Waves Kramer MPX but I am sure you can get similar results with other plugins.

I think this transient taming ability is a huge part of the reason that people claim that tape sounds amazing for drums. It's not the same as a limiter - a limiter punches a hole in the signal whereas driving tape is more like a soft clipper and only softens the tops.

[newnes]

Mixing techniques aside... I would suggest building a relationship with one ME that you like and use him / her all the time. If you consistently mix a certain way and they figure out a good way to master your stuff then I'm sure they'll be happy to accommodate you and get all your work and you'll be happy to not explain youself every time. Everyone wins!

[earman]

Have you tried a transient shaper plugin? I use it on kick and snare tracks for punch.

[sHOWpONY]

Originally Posted by earman

Have you tried a transient shaper plugin? I use it on kick and snare tracks for punch.

Have you tried doing this with compressors? Saves you the cost of another plugin AND gives you far options. I usually use a gate and compressor in series, but you can do it just with a compressor...short attack, 10:1 ratio, very low threshold...wiggle these settings to taste and you've got a real short snap.
If you want length, a mono reverb can work great.