RME ADI-2 for Mastering

[Kazuya]

Hi Slutz,
i´m using a MOTU 828 MK II for recording.
But i have more and more masteringjobs.
Will a rme improve the ad/da conversion?
Right now i´m building up my masteringequipment, so i don´t have highend stuff like manley, massenburg... (just in the box)
But sometimes i like to go out of the box, use my SPL eq and vitalizer into tc. triple-c chain.

Thanx in advance and sorry for my broken english, i´m just a german :-))

[mastertone]

Nah, start with a nice DAC instead.

Use the search function, there is a ton of posts about this.

Maybe a LavryBlack DA11?

[Dr.Wu]

i dont do mastering but when i switched from motu to rme i heard a big improvement in quality.

[Kazuya]

Thanx for the fast answers... :-)

Difficult to find a point to start at when you want to improve soundquality.

The Lavry is "just" dac for about 1200 €.

Should i stay in the box with that option?

I like analog sooo much, because i find my self do a better master with analog equipment, even though i do not have the highend stuff.

Treating some knobs makes better sound than treating the mousewheel...

[777Artin]

That's because you don't know what you're doing. You let the gear do it for you without knowing.

I've heard good ITO masters.

777artin

[Kazuya]

Yeap,

heard good masters in "all worlds".

100% analog, 100% digital and hybrid...

But i like the treatment of analog knobs, especially for general sweatening.

Notchfiltering, dynamic eq, multiband widening... That´s nice digital stuff.

I like to work the hybrid way :-)

[Surbitone]

Maybe look at the Lynx L22 with a separate monitor DAC, or perhaps a Lynx Two if you've got a pci slot spare. They are wicked converters for the price, well up to the task. Also check out the Beresford Caiman, it's £200 so won't break the bank, and could be used either as your monitor DAC, or in conjunction with something like the L22 for your analogue loop, and the Beresford for your monitor DAC. Just a cost effective suggestion

[DSPaudio]

In my experience an RME ADI-2 or ADI-8 DS (or even Anniversary Edition) will be a noticeable upgrade over the 828 MK2. The improvement should be obvious, even on cheap monitors like Mackie HR 824's.

I don't want to discourage you from getting more expensive "Ultra-fidelity" conversion like Lavry/Prism/Etc., but honestly the conversion level of an ADI-2 is getting reasonably near it's ultra-fi brothers and sisters.
It is also good to remember that speakers make a much larger difference in THD, Phase-shift and coloration than most modern DA converters. And even further beyond speakers -- an untuned room is the worst enemy to accurate sound.

After a certain price point conversion becomes a pissing contest or a psycho-auditory hallucination party that has little relevance to producing good work. The essentially random results of blind high-end shootouts indicate how little audible difference there is between most of these "properly implemented" mastering converters except for 1 aspect, which I've never seen included in a shootout, clipping.

The outcome of so many high end units being so close to each other in reproducing sound is a massive win.
Buyers can now choose their preferred converter by looks, which is far more important than sound in the modern studio.

As far as shootouts go,
Consider, just raising or lowering your head a few inches while auditioning will change your perception of the sound to a greater extent than the differences between most high-end converters themselves. And if the room isn't treated moving your head from left to right will give dramatic changes. So when you hear these descriptions of "this one was a little sharp", or "this one was a bit fast", demand to know the exact spatial coordinates of the persons ears in relation to the speakers (or better yet demand they redo the test with quality headphones - or - put their head in a vice and increase pressure). Lastly, demand they speak science with qualitative terms. If it's all quantitative descriptions then it's basically pointless jibber jabber.

Okay I'm being extreme, but honestly, there is *a lot* of WOO around converter upgrades and I think it benefits the salesman more than the consumer.

A mantra I find reasonable is "Room then Speakers then Conversion". Although I could break that rule if I owned an 828 MK2.

With Super high-end conversion, perfectly tuned rooms and world class monitoring the ME has become a scientist with a giant over-powered electron microscope making fine adjustments most of his clients will never hear. *However*, the ME enjoys his work more because of this "ideal listening" situation. I appreciate these scientists, their laboratories, and their output but I also interject and suggest somewhere between the audiophile and the mp3 lies sanity.

To quote my friend Jaymz Julian, "After a certain number of zero's nobody gives a f*ck."

I hope this was useful. As always when making a serious buying decision audition the gear to hear it yourself. I could probably work on an ADI-2 assuming it clipped at the A-D stage reasonably well. Anybody know how RME's clip? If I remember right it was brittle, but I wasn't paying much attention to such things 6 years ago.

[Joe_caithness]

Using ADI-2 here for processing chain, it's really good for the money and you can get them really cheap second hand as people upgrade their signal paths..

Downsides:

-Lacks extreme bottom end, seems to have a kind of low shelf cut below about 40 that kinda tails off..
- Pretty shoddy build quality, my SDIF ports are knackered and I've had to attach em back on myself, that said, this was a second hand unit/

Upsides:

- The guys at RME and the UK distributors (Synthax) are very helpful and friendly
- Incredible bang for buck, as doesn't have pointless mic pres, USB connections etc.

[recall]

I'm not ashamed to say I use an rme adi 2 and have mastered a few records with it as my capture and main monitor.

If I walked into a £1000 pd studio and saw an adi2 I would be concerned but if the results are good then I couldn't care less.

For the projects I work on it has been fine. I will eventually upgrade, but i'll keep the adi 2 as it is so useful to have the ad+da in the same box.

if you are in the UK/EU there is one on ebay right now for a good price (it's not mine)

[Red Mastering]

check this site:
Audio-GD Company

they have hi-end dacs too,
still the price ratio is really great!
do some research, ppl love those dacs

good luck

[HomeProducer]

Originally Posted by Joe_caithness

Using ADI-2 here for processing chain, it's really good for the money and you can get them really cheap second hand as people upgrade their signal paths..

Downsides:

-Lacks extreme bottom end, seems to have a kind of low shelf cut below about 40 that kinda tails off..
- Pretty shoddy build quality, my SDIF ports are knackered and I've had to attach em back on myself, that said, this was a second hand unit/

Upsides:

- The guys at RME and the UK distributors (Synthax) are very helpful and friendly
- Incredible bang for buck, as doesn't have pointless mic pres, USB connections etc.

Measured the ADI-2. Rulerflat response (plusminus 0.1 dB) down to any reasonable frequency. If there is a rolloff, its not the converter.

[Kazuya]

Thank you all. I´m new here (was my first thread :-)) and like it.
The Lynx L22 looks good to me.
Then i could just use the Lynx, instead of using my 828 with a converter like the rme.
By the way:
Did anyone test the internal digital Output of the Macpro???

I´m using it with a Sony DAT for DAC (for itunes etc...) and it sounds clean.

Back to Topic:

I think i´ll test an rme converter from my friend and look, how much i hear or don´t hear. Hope to test the Lynx somewhere...

[Dr.Wu]

i use the ADI2 with the optical i/o of my macpro 8core
works like a charme
no driver issues to deal with just pure unaltered sound

[Kazuya]

Originally Posted by Dr.Wu

i use the ADI2 with the optical i/o of my macpro 8core
works like a charme
no driver issues to deal with just pure unaltered sound

:-)
I´ll try it out. Maybe Apple uses a Lynx Soundcard and nobody knows it :-)

[Joe_caithness]

Originally Posted by HomeProducer

Measured the ADI-2. Rulerflat response (plusminus 0.1 dB) down to any reasonable frequency. If there is a rolloff, its not the converter.

Well, my ears say otherwise, whether or not there is a value on a test to confirm it, I A-B, I hear low disapearing slightly, I'm not the first person to mention it on here either.

[Kazuya]

Originally Posted by Joe_caithness

Well, my ears say otherwise, whether or not there is a value on a test to confirm it, I A-B, I hear low disapearing slightly, I'm not the first person to mention it on here either.

With which kind of converter do you compare it?

Ever compared it to the Lynx (PCI cards) or Motu 828 MK2 or something else in the 500 - 1000 € range?

[Joe_caithness]

Originally Posted by Kazuya

With which kind of converter do you compare it?

Ever compared it to the Lynx (PCI cards) or Motu 828 MK2 or something else in the 500 - 1000 € range?

My other convertor is a Benchmark DAC1

EDIT: But my findings are on a run out and back in test for the RME ADI2

[OMU]

I would buy an ULN-2 expanded which has AD, DA and separate monitor outs, every kind of digital i/o you want plus a wonderful mixer with top notch toys. I frequently use this for clipping the masters (I clip in the software mixer), sounds better to me than clipping the Lavry DA-10 I also have. It is a great piece of equipment.

[Spartacus]

Originally Posted by DSPaudio

It is also good to remember that speakers make a much larger difference in THD, Phase-shift and coloration than most modern DA converters.

As far as shootouts go,
Consider, just raising or lowering your head a few inches while auditioning will change your perception of the sound to a greater extent than the differences between most high-end converters themselves. And if the room isn't treated moving your head from left to right will give dramatic changes. So when you hear these descriptions of "this one was a little sharp", or "this one was a bit fast", demand to know the exact spatial coordinates of the persons ears in relation to the speakers (or better yet demand they redo the test with quality headphones - or - put their head in a vice and increase pressure).

Okay I'm being extreme, but honestly, there is *a lot* of WOO around converter upgrades and I think it benefits the salesman more than the consumer.

A mantra I find reasonable is "Room then Speakers then Conversion". Although I could break that rule if I owned an 828 MK2.

Indeed. Would be great to have more posts like that which makes perfectly sense.

I sometimes use RME converters as well.
Still the RME converters are not as accurate in terms of measure than say a Hedd192 / Lavry gold / Mytek...
You have a bit more phase shift measured, but I'm talking here about less than 0,2° shift max (and in the extreme frequencies regions) which correspond to a -50dB null...so not earable in many occasions...
Also the extreme low-end response isn't that flat, but again, we're talking about 0,x dB at 20/30 Hz...

So using RME as DAC+ADC to feed analogue chain+ monitoring DAC isn't maybe perfectly accurate for mastering task.
But using it only as interface + DAC monitoring is ok, I have much more phase shift moving my head, and much more distortions in all kind (phase, amplitude, THD) coming from my perfectly accurate speakers...

[Kazuya]

Originally Posted by Spartacus

I have much more phase shift moving my head, and much more distortions in all kind (phase, amplitude, THD) coming from my perfectly accurate speakers...

O.k., which Head do you use :-)

[Spartacus]

Originally Posted by Kazuya

O.k., which Head do you use :-)

the one with two ears...