How can we change with the industry

[ross.k2186]

In addition to my last post, I would like to apologise first of all for my grammar which was present in my post prior to this one - I was in the middle of a lot of things.

I have summarised some post I got which was very interesting and presents some new topics to discuss here. So my first thought is, the music industry is changing - how can be change with it in order to maintain this industry (being the audio recording/mastering industry) and preserve the future of it for enthusiasts like myself which have a genuine in this art. Also a topic was brought being that a lot of home recording studios have been sending their music to get mastered which initially had been recorded and mixed in the box. I would be incline to think that this in the box approach with amateur recorders/producers would create a growth and demand for mastering engineers, well at least to my knowledge. I personally think a lot of people are cutting cots (which is understandable) these days but there is no substitute for quality tracks.

*Another interesting topic that was raised was the fact that there are a rapidly growing amount of audio graduates entering this industry( or wanting to create their own studio), while limited work is available and exists. As a former graduate I could not stop thinking to myself (and forgive me if this may possibly offend anyone) that most people are not aware of the skill and knowledge that is actually required as a recording/mastering engineer, and has to my knowledge been viewed more as something "cool" to study as an alternative. I would like to clearly state though there are some genuine enthusiasts amongst them though including myself with a lot of background knowledge and experience. However I personally saw some opportunity out of this, being that more artists could get recorded by graduates and more of a demand for mastering engineers to really enhance the audio.

**I think this whole digital age and how if effects this industry and what we can do to move with the growing trends is a very interesting one, and I personally think a lot of great ideas could be produced in this great forum.**

[Shy]

The "industry" mostly stinks, it always did and always will. That's what happens when business and art mix. Today the result of this mixture in "modern society" is that most people "consume" mostly poor excuses for art. There are always exceptions and they will always be a very small minority.

Along with today's "consumerism" and ever-increasing spread amongst the masses of what barely counts as music, also the availability of and ability to reach the kind of musical works you desire has very significantly increased. Therefore, people who desire to listen to good music can very easily do so today compared to decades and even several years ago. Yes, there is hope for talented artists even in today's "modern society".

Claudio Monteverdi said "Music is spiritual. The music business is not." about 400 years ago. I'm sure others had similar things to say much before him, and I'm sure it will always be the same. I think too many people don't do a proper separation and distinction between business (or "industries") and art and don't blend the two as least destructively as possible. It annoys me, but like I said, that's how it is.

[Ben F]

If you want work as an actual Engineer, there is a massive shortage of 'technologists' in the broadcast sector. Most of the older analogue guys are retiring, and many of the new uni graduates understand digital/IP technology but not analogue (such as recording, using a desk, wiring a studio, RF etc). This is what the audio schools should really focus on but I imagine it's not glamorous and takes more than 2 years to get a degree. Working at a television or radio station as a Broadcast Engineer would give anyone loads of experience working with audio, mixing, signal flow, communication and also access to some of the finest gear available. Then you can then finance your own studio and have a stable career at the same time.

You can't change the industry it will evolve by itself. You just have to look for new opportunities that will keep you employed in the future, and educate yourself on future technology. It's survival of the fittest.

BTW I went to SAE a long time ago and got a job as a Mastering Assistant out of it.

[ross.k2186]

I have to agree with SHY. Music is not what it used to be as well it has become more disposable. I am 24 and I still keep listening to those old records thinking this is great and now I hear music on the radio and I am not inspired. So I guess business and art do not mix, I mean ultimately the recording companies are trying to make money just like everyone else, but there is a difference between putting some great new music out there and full of talent, and just the next top ten pop tune that everyone will forget in a few months. For instance look at how many pink floyd CD's there are in JB HI-FI, and also the price of them and how quickly they sell - this reflects my perspective on this matter.

[mikeg09]

The thing about the music industry is that everyone is in competition now. They are not veiwing it as an artform anymore but rather viewing it as a sport. I guess the next best thing is for people like us to create music that sounds like it was created for art but make it soo good that the industry will like it. Thats if you want to go mainstream. But its really hard to make TRUE art and be in the mainstream industry now-a-days. There are only a few people in hip hop, for example, that are mainstream and still have talent in their production.
Ex. Dr. Dre
There are others but hes been working on Detox for ten years. That shows that amongst others, he cares about the quality.
That also shows that hey, if you get rich enough to where money does not matter anymore and your already mainstream, you could be like Dre and take time on your music, release it, and maybe change the industry back to the old times where music mattered.
But i know one thing,
music is the way it is now because of us. We listen and buy this crap yet we complain about it. Lets stop buying Soldier Boy music and lets start buying more music that we actually want to hear! If the industry wants money then we are the ones in control. Not them.

[mikeg09]

Also,
I find that we tend to like older music compared to newer music because..

1. Everything now is too overly compressed which makes it sound too structured. There is no rythim or musical bounce to it. People over compress because (like i said before) everyone is in competition and everybody wants their mixes to be as loud as possible.. That can be good at times but not when its abused the way it is.

2. Everyone now strives to have that (perfect) sound. Music back then seemed to sound better because it was actually imperfect. Music should be about sound and what you like. Not about numbers and calculations. Leave that for construction workers lol

Thats my opinion. What do yall think?

[echoRausch]

Originally Posted by mikeg09

Also,
I find that we tend to like older music compared to newer music because..

1. Everything now is too overly compressed which makes it sound too structured. There is no rythim or musical bounce to it. People over compress because (like i said before) everyone is in competition and everybody wants their mixes to be as loud as possible.. That can be good at times but not when its abused the way it is.

2. Everyone now strives to have that (perfect) sound. Music back then seemed to sound better because it was actually imperfect. Music should be about sound and what you like. Not about numbers and calculations. Leave that for construction workers lol

Thats my opinion. What do yall think?

Disagree at all. Well, "Frayed" by THE NAKED AND FAMOUS could sound way better if it was not compressed the way it is but hey, what counts is I like it anyway.

I don't tend to like "older music". I like it or not, if it's old or new doesn't matter. Sometimes i start to dislike things i loved in the past and some music I will always like.

Someone can discuss if it's better to hear original or remastered versions of older albums. And for listening at home or in the car I usually prefer the remastered one's...

Today you have to invest much more time to find music you really enjoy because there is so much of it. You can't expect to simply turn on the radio and get presented what you are looking for.

And that's the point where we can change the industry. Take time to look for good music instead of consuming what marketing serves us.

[ross.k2186]

I still personally think out of all these discussions and what not, nothing can replace the power, punch and satisfactory of listening to an album thats been mastered by someone that really understands sound theory etc. As far as the topic on audio graduates wanting to do all their own recording, I am about to record my own jazz album and will be paying professionals to record it even though I possess the skill and knowledge to deliver a quality product, also I like to support business's which have engineers who have dedicated so much time to producing good sound. In conjunction, a lot of people seem to be trying to be the producer, engineer and mastering engineer - third party input and ears is a good approach.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by rossco_210786

In addition to my last post, I would like to apologize first of all for my grammar which was present in my post prior to this one - I was in the middle of a lot of things.

I have summarized some post I got which was very interesting and presents some new topics to discuss here. So my first thought is, the music industry is changing - how can be change with it in order to maintain this industry (being the audio recording/mastering industry) and preserve the future of it for enthusiasts like myself which have a genuine in this art. Also a topic was brought being that a lot of home recording studios have been sending their music to get mastered which initially had been recorded and mixed in the box. I would be incline to think that this in the box approach with amateur recorders/producers would create a growth and demand for mastering engineers, well at least to my knowledge. I personally think a lot of people are cutting cots (which is understandable) these days but there is no substitute for quality tracks.

*Another interesting topic that was raised was the fact that there are a rapidly growing amount of audio graduates entering this industry( or wanting to create their own studio), while limited work is available and exists. As a former graduate I could not stop thinking to myself (and forgive me if this may possibly offend anyone) that most people are not aware of the skill and knowledge that is actually required as a recording/mastering engineer, and has to my knowledge been viewed more as something "cool" to study as an alternative. I would like to clearly state though there are some genuine enthusiasts amongst them though including myself with a lot of background knowledge and experience. However I personally saw some opportunity out of this, being that more artists could get recorded by graduates and more of a demand for mastering engineers to really enhance the audio.

**I think this whole digital age and how if effects this industry and what we can do to move with the growing trends is a very interesting one, and I personally think a lot of great ideas could be produced in this great forum.**

I think we are all having to change to meet changing needs. The "gravy days" of yesteryear will not be back soon. Record companies are not going to support new talent like they did in the past. The consumer is not going to go out and purchase a couple of CDs a week or month but will probably get most of their music "off line" either legally or illegally.

The whole record/recording/music industry started to change when companies like Teac, Tascam, Fostex, Otari, Revox and others started to offer to the consumer a way of recording themselves and friends or band mates. Before that time it took a whole studio full of expensive equipment to do what someone could do with a minimal investment and very little knowledge. 2 track recorders soon became multi-track recorders and small two track consoles became multi-track monsters.

Then the whole digital age came into being. You could now make a copy of a CD that sounded as good as the original. (In the old analog days you always lost a "generation" when copying but that was no longer true.) The internet came along and besides having places to learn how to do something you could now "trade" music with your "friends" (no matter how many millions of them there were). Record companies started losing revenue due to piracy and they stopped supporting young artist. The whole mess got worse and worse and worse and studios that had been profitable in the past were going under and major recording studios in New York were being converted into condominiums since the real estate was worth more than the studios. Digital also brought in the idea that you could create music in post production and that you really did not have to know how play well you could always fix it later. A whole new verb was invented it is called "protools" and it is used in a sentence like this. "don't worry we can protool that later and make it sound GREAT"

In the old days there was a whole master/apprentice system of learning how to do things properly. Today anyone with a couple of hundred dollars and some basic knowledge can hang out a shingle with the words "recording, mixing and mastering done here" and they don't need to know anything except how to advertise on the WWW or hang up posters. Studios that once cost hundreds of thousands of dollars could now be "duplicated" in someone's bedroom or basement for under $1000. What could not be "duplicated" was the experience and the knowledge of the engineers that were being literally "cast aside" because no one wanted to pay for their knowledge or experience and many did not want to go into the studio anymore because they thought they could "do it" in their bedrooms or basements just as well.

The day of the ultimate DIY musician had arrived and all they wanted to do was make music and record themselves. They tried to do it all from playing their instruments to recording themselves to mixing themselves to mastering themselves. Some even went as far as to design their own websites, their own CD covers and some even got into the manufacturing of their own CDs. This was GREAT for them but bad for people who depended on the musicians for their incomes.

So here we are today. The music business is in a shambles, people are having to change what it is that they did to make money from music in the "good olde days" or go find another job in a related field or start growing asparagus in the high deserts of California.

Where do we go from here??? I guess a lot of it depends on where you live, on whether you are doing this for fun or to make money to live on.

The music industry will probably never go back to the "olde days" and will continue to evolve and change. The trick, as always, is to know where it is heading and to be open to changing the way you and your associates do business.

[Bob Olhsson]

What's really broken is the grass roots performance venues where young artists and young fans of live music used to grow.

I think you can trace most of today's music business and audio quality problems to the loss of live music as most people's benchmark for the quality of a music recording.

[jackthebear]

Rather than focus on how we can change the industry, perhaps we should look at ourselves first......

It's our responsibility to adapt and re-invent ourselves if we are to stay relevant......

Wishing for the "olde days" is backward thinking and while nostalgia is nice.......yesterday is history and tomorrow is a mystery.....

I think we should just get to work and improve what we do......build relationships and most of all never forget the reason we do what we do and just enjoy the ride........sure as heck beats working for a living........

[DuX]

I enjoyed your post very much Mr. Thomas W. Bethe. Around 20 years has passed before my eyes as all that I've been through. I wonder if I'm still alive? Oh yes, I am, OK. pulse is beating steadily.

It's an incredible thread and I couldn't agree more with everything that has been said so far. I possibly cannot add much more to it, but I'll try. It is not that difficult to understand where "everything" is going, you just have to open your mind and embrace the "new ways". Music is growing more personal. The mainstream is not being ignored, but it matters less.

Loudness war definitely nicely contributes to that. I'll tell you about my experience with loudness wars that are far more important than you might think, even though I know you know how important they are... all you need is good ears and we have plenty of those eh? I think loudness wars makes people unconsciously hate the new music that's being thrown at them. Listening to all these overloud produced songs is very tiresome and even irritating. Like trying to listen to white noise all the time. It just makes you nervous, you want to change the song... it's just not pleasurable to listen to.

Anyway, my point is - the music industry is digging its own grave with the loudness wars! People can say what they want, but the mind cannot stand the white noise for more than 5 minutes! It's a physical and psychological fact! However, they want people to listen to them too much and it's going to bounce back at them. That's what I'm trying to say. The music industry will slowly die. They'll probably try to adapt at some stage and the survivors will continue to work...

It is not my wish for this to happen as I also depend by some margin on the music industry's "ways", but I think it is inevitable, as human greed is inevitable and insatiable, it just keeps growing with the society as it is now. Being insatiable is also a nice way to say bye bye to your life as many of the gamblers know it. You have to know where to stop if you're a gambler, in order to survive.

Regarding "home-producers", in a way that's great, in other way it is not. A lot of people who are talented but have no resources to make their music and make their music heard were forced to live a "normal" life in the past, but now they have a chance to be heard. That's really nice, but the fact is that there's also a far more greater number of those who just make replicated and in no way artistic or innovative music. That's inevitable. With the music industry going under, we also lose the "filter" [high-pass? ] that used to filter out those that just plainly - suck at it, and should really consider some other vocation in life. However, you can find some great talents on Soundcloud and I really like them. Some of them even make a really decent "masters", ok mixes , not too limited. That's so nice to hear - a modern music that's not too limited. We have all these tools and quality of sound at our disposal just to make it sound awful. I think that's a shame. Big, great, huge shame.

Whatever happens, I think the future is bright, but for whom? Will people just make more music at home and enjoy that? Their friends, colleagues or neighbours? I certainly doubt they'll listen to only mainstream that competes on loudness and now's in a stage of who's master will sound less distorted. That's mindless. It's gotta stop. So what will happen? I'm not sure, but I know art will survive...

@jackthebear - Way to go, mate! yes.

Cheers all!

[cyrano]

A view how the net is changing a lot of things. Music, movies, even graffiti is changing. From Google:

https://docs.google.com/present/view...zM4Y3o2bmduZDY

Things like this might get some people to be creative again

WARNING; viewing the entire slide show might take more than a day.

[ross.k2186]

There has been some great replies here. I cannot help to think that there needs to be a significant change at the top of the ladder in order for some positive results to occur. I mean lets face it everyone likes music, it defines, unites and is enjoyable, I thought by now they may have brainstormed some new ideas about the audio medium we still use ( CD ) and MP3 for instance every new CD player has connectivity for IPODS and some blue tooth, and making it just to easy to support pirated music. I think some of the corporate companies need to change with the actual industry to see some big differences. Whilst supporting that contention, I believe the psychology of society has changed in relation to digital media and the way we use it. That is something that probably will not change.

** I personally think societies ears are quite good as well considering most people only hear well mastered music i.e radio and commercial CD's. Maybe once they heard some nasty gritty tracks they will create a demand for well engineered music.**



Never a substitute for the power and punch a well mastered track has

[DuX]

I think the top of the ladder is the main problem, too much greed, ignorance and blindness. They won't change. They'll just die off like dinosaurs. Just my humble view on the future.

That is not to say that if the top of the ladder started changing their views not only about loudness wars but the market itself... oh yes, that would be so great. For them, most of all. They should wake up.

Not making it louder, but making it better! Recruiting better artists, not just chicks with plastic breasts that can sing a national anthem, but artists who have carisma, something to convey other than sex, for instance. "The Doors" anyone? "Simple Minds"? "U2"? ...

Cheers!

[Bob Olhsson]

There in fact have been numerous major changes at the "top of the ladder" over the past few years and it has had no positive effect.

The problems at music's grass roots is the elephant in the room.

[mikeg09]

Great responces!!!
I know whenever i listen to music now, i tend to want to turn the volume down as it sounds more pleasing to me. Being a mixer/engineer, i feel like when listening to music at lower volumes, i hear 'more' of it. That might sound weird but thats me.
So all i know is im going to make my mixes loud enough to be herd at a decent volume. I feel the quality will be better. Some people dont care about quality so if they wanna crank their music up all the way then let them do it. I like my method and i hear it

I still feel like most music sounds good quality-wise. Its mainly hip-hop music that i feel is suffering a lot.. That concerns me because i love hip-hop. When i turn on a radio station that plays rock music, i feel it sounds better than the music being played in a hip hop station.. idk but i dont like it one bit

But like some of yall mentioned before, when i listen to hip-hop that i like which isnt on the radio i like the production better. These mastering engineers need to chill man!

[ross.k2186]

Originally Posted by jackthebear

Rather than focus on how we can change the industry, perhaps we should look at ourselves first......

It's our responsibility to adapt and re-invent ourselves if we are to stay relevant......

Wishing for the "olde days" is backward thinking and while nostalgia is nice.......yesterday is history and tomorrow is a mystery.....

I think we should just get to work and improve what we do......build relationships and most of all never forget the reason we do what we do and just enjoy the ride........sure as heck beats working for a living........

Hi I have actually heard your work I am pretty sure, a electronica producer told me about you, he was one of the lectures at SAE Brisbane, says you got some nice analog equipment as well.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

What's really broken is the grass roots performance venues where young artists and young fans of live music used to grow.

I think you can trace most of today's music business and audio quality problems to the loss of live music as most people's benchmark for the quality of a music recording.

There are still a lot of places for bands and performers to play the problem is that there are so many performers and bands that club and bar owners can pick and choose the best and then pay them nothing and make them work long hours. In most cases this is not what the performer really wants to do but at least they are "playing live". Many places around here have "pay to play" clauses where you have to bring 50 of your closest friends if you even want to get paid. I hear horror stories from clients who say they are promised a good amount of money and when they are done playing the bar or club owner will give them 10% of what they were promised. If they don't like it there are 20 other bands waiting in the wings who are willing and able to take over the next night. Not a good time for musicians.

In the "olde days" you could go out and see a top ranked performer in a smaller venue, have a good time and still walk out with out having to take out a bank loan. Today seats at almost every venue are high priced and if you want to sit anywhere near the front they are astronomical. Many people today DON'T go out to hear live music because it is so high priced not only because of the admission price but also for the parking and to have something to eat before or after the concert. The same scenario is happening in pro sports and going out to a movie.

You are right on the money with your statement but there are many reasons why this is not happening anymore...