16 bit mixes need mastering; artist desires OTB processing

[SSMastering]

I need a bit of help in explaining to an artist that mixes recorded at 16 bit/44.1kHz won't really benefit from being sent through an analog mastering chain (please let me know if this is false, as many top ME's have said they won't accept mixes sent to them that aren't at least 24-bit.) The songs should have been initially recorded at 24/48 for this to work best, and the artist AND producer both tell me "well, the songs need to be at 16 bit before going to CD anyway, so it doesn't really matter, etc."

As I understand it, sending a 16-bit mix through an ADC, through an analog compressor and EQ (for example), then back through the DAC will degrade the quality even further, won't it? I read in the Bob Katz book that the Source-Quality Rule is: Source recordings and masters should always have higher resolution than the eventual release medium. I'm doing the best I can on research.

I believe it will be better to keep all further processing digital (ITB) to avoid further degradation. I was thinking of explaining that there are "exactly 65,536 discrete steps, or values available in 16-bit audio, and 16,777,216 discrete steps in 24-bit audio." Would this be the best approach? Or is it better to just respect the artist's wishes and go through an analog chain, anyway?

[lucey]

Originally Posted by SSMastering

I need a bit of help in explaining to an artist that mixes recorded at 16 bit/44.1kHz won't really benefit from being sent through an analog mastering chain (please let me know if this is false, as many top ME's have said they won't accept mixes sent to them that aren't at least 24-bit.) The songs should have been initially recorded at 24/48 for this to work best, and the artist AND producer both tell me "well, the songs need to be at 16 bit before going to CD anyway, so it doesn't really matter, etc."

As I understand it, sending a 16-bit mix through an ADC, through an analog compressor and EQ (for example), then back through the DAC will degrade the quality even further, won't it? I read in the Bob Katz book that the Source-Quality Rule is: Source recordings and masters should always have higher resolution than the eventual release medium. I'm doing the best I can on research.

I believe it will be better to keep all further processing digital (ITB) to avoid further degradation. I was thinking of explaining that there are "exactly 65,536 discrete steps, or values available in 16-bit audio, and 16,777,216 discrete steps in 24-bit audio." Would this be the best approach? Or is it better to just respect the artist's wishes and go through an analog chain, anyway?

False. Happens all the time. No issues.

A good mix is important, not the bit or sample rate.

Daniel Lanois has been mastering from DAT for years.

If it sounds better to be processing this music ITB then do that, but personally I wouldn't.

[Jonkr]

I don't see a problem with mastering 16 bit audio. Of course they should try to work at 24bit if possible, but it wouldn't make sense to not get it mastered just because its in 16bit.

[Chris Lago]

This is definitely false. Just do an OTB vs ITB master and you'll understand.

[AUDIOBOMBER]

after having done tons of master from 16/44.1 source i`d say that nearly every sound can benefit from analog stages.....
90% of the problems occuring in mastering are from mix and arrangement , not from bits and bites.

love and light!

[dcollins]

Why don't you try it? I get 44/16 sources all the time.

"But it's in the book."


DC

[SSMastering]

Originally Posted by dcollins

Why don't you try it? I get 44/16 sources all the time.

"But it's in the book."


DC

Ok, thanks for the advice.

I've definitely been getting some bad information.

The mixes sound excellent, so there's no issues on that end.

Originally Posted by lucey

False. Happens all the time. No issues.

A good mix is important, not the bit or sample rate.

[huejahfink]

Depends on the material. Particularly dynamic / quiet material 'might' suffer in 16. But don't sweat it.
Have mastered a whole bunch of 16/44 tracks here and have taken CD audio to cutting rooms and got great sounding records from them.

Really no biggy.

[SSMastering]

Good to know; there are a few ballad/mellow tracks, but a lot of guitar-heavy, big-drum rockers.

The thing is this album will be released in stores all over the world, so I want to make sure I make the right decision.

[Waltz Mastering]

Worked on an 8 bit project today. Analog chain, slight limiting.

[echoRausch]

Originally Posted by Jonkr

I don't see a problem with mastering 16 bit audio. Of course they should try to work at 24bit if possible, but it wouldn't make sense to not get it mastered just because its in 16bit.

thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup

[Ben F]

If it sounds good then it is good, as the old saying goes.

I must say that I find it odd for a 'mastering engineer' to even ask such a question.

[Jon Hodgson]

A little perspective here...

A 16 bit signal has a better SNR than analogue tape.

Nobody ever seemed to have a problem with the idea of putting a signal from tape through a mastering chain.

Now you can get good 16 bit recordings and bad ones (dither is more important for a start), and if it's a bad one you'll be more limited in what you can do, but then that counts for everything really.

[lowland]

Originally Posted by Ben F

I must say that I find it odd for a 'mastering engineer' to even ask such a question.

Occurred to me as well.

[t_d]

i'd master 8-bit files through my analog chain.

[KyleDiSanto]

I dont see a problem either.

thumbsup

[Bubbagump]

Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering

Worked on an 8 bit project today. Analog chain, slight limiting.

What is the typical reason for 8 bit? Video game work or folks just using really old digital gear or?

[huejahfink]

^^ For one, multimedia / web stuff where a very small file size is paramount. Pretty rare tho' I've found.

Also there is a vastly growing network of people making 'chip-music' relying on 8-bit technology. C64s, Modded gameboys etc. Although to be honest, I imagine that in most cases this is still actually recorded using normal rates.

[adamgonsa]

Originally Posted by Bubbagump

What is the typical reason for 8 bit? Video game work or folks just using really old digital gear or?

Folks do love their chiptune.

[aleatoric]

Originally Posted by adamgonsa

Folks do love their chiptune.

They sure do.

YouTube - Pink Floyd: Dark Side of the Moon 8-bit: Money

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by Bubbagump

What is the typical reason for 8 bit? Video game work or folks just using really old digital gear or?

... and I think it's a sub culture/genre thing. If you google nintendocore on youtube there's some stuff up there.

[wado1942]

Also there is a vastly growing network of people making 'chip-music' relying on 8-bit technology. C64s, Modded gameboys etc.

Yeah but most of the authentic chip music is actually generated with analogue equipment. It's just controlled by 8-bit processors. Nintendo, for instance, had 2 square wave generators, triangle, pseudo-white noise generated by a 4-bit shift register and 1-bit or 4-bit digital audio. Gameboy I think was all analogue. C64s were all analogue except for a 4-bit digital channel.

[SSMastering]

Originally Posted by Ben F

If it sounds good then it is good, as the old saying goes.

I must say that I find it odd for a 'mastering engineer' to even ask such a question.

I was being told by another ME that he won't even accept 16-bit audio because the quality just isn't high enough.

I've read it on quite a few ME's websites as well.
I came here to get opinions because I assumed I'd get a better perspective on the issue.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by SSMastering

I was being told by another ME that he won't even accept 16-bit audio because the quality just isn't high enough.

I've read it on quite a few ME's websites as well.
I came here to get opinions because I assumed I'd get a better perspective on the issue.

Clearly there are a lot of clueless people out there. This is so not-an-issue that I just can't emphasize it enough.

Bob's nice book is still misleading at times ... it comes up a lot.

The bottom line for sessions to mastering is send the native rate and bits, the end.

[Ben F]

Originally Posted by SSMastering

I was being told by another ME that he won't even accept 16-bit audio because the quality just isn't high enough.

I've read it on quite a few ME's websites as well.
I came here to get opinions because I assumed I'd get a better perspective on the issue.

To give a little more perspective- a 24bit/96kHz file played though a sound blaster card may sound worse than a 16bit/44.1kHz file played through a decent DA. So in some respects specs can be misleading. As long is your conversion is decent then you have nothing to worry about.

In the same way a 24bit 48kHz mix done poorly will sound worse than a decent 16bit/44.1kHz mix. It's also worth not thinking of digital as discrete steps. This is how the information is stored, but the resulting waveform is a voltage that does not have 'steps'.

[SSMastering]

Thanks for all the input. This is only the third album so far that I've sent through an analog chain, two of which were recorded and mixed at 24/48. All previous albums I've mastered were done using plug-ins. Took me a while to save up the money in order to purchase some decent analog gear. learning quickly I can't always rely on books and a handful of ME's.

[lowland]

Originally Posted by SSMastering

I was being told by another ME that he won't even accept 16-bit audio because the quality just isn't high enough.

I'm sure any of the ME's generally considered among the best regularly get 16 bit material and don't complain - who is this paragon of whom you speak?

I've read it on quite a few ME's websites as well.

My own site says 'preferably 24 bit', but that doesn't preclude other bit rates - my guess would be that the sites you mention probably say something similar.

I came here to get opinions because I assumed I'd get a better perspective on the issue.

I think it's safe to say that you are :-)

[Red Mastering]

Originally Posted by lucey

The bottom line for sessions to mastering is send the native rate and bits, the end.

that's it. nothing more to say in this discussion.