mastering for vinyl

[mata_haze]

Hi everybody...
I tried to snick this question in some other threads before but no one seemed interested enough so I decided to post a new thread for it...
I am currently working on a Dance track that needs to be printed on vinyl but as I amm new on vinyl I am looking for suggestions and tips...
SO what the label is trying to achieve is to get te songprinted as loud as possible especially in the low end part of the spectrum were the 63Hz region is..
now...we had a long discussion about this and I did some research regarding this aspect and as far as I am aware 63 Hz is (about) the frequency our hearth beats at..so if that particula region of frequencies is enfatized it's easier for people to go on the dance floor...
having said this is now time for the proper question:
has any of you ever mastered for vinyl?
I read Bob Katz "Mastering Audio The Art Science of" but there is not much about vinyl :(
how can I improve the level on the disc without ruin the whole mix?
there are a lot of factors involved into this like, for example: stereo image,length of the song etc...and I tought maybe I should concentrate on getting the right amount of low-end and forget about stereo image (who is going to feel the stereo image in a club???) which in turns might help me to gain a bit more level on the cut.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE VINYL GURUs come out and help me!!!
many thanks!

[Bob Olhsson]

For a 12" single, the biggest challenge is playback cartridge tracking. There are both low-frequency problems and high frequency issues.

The approach I'd take is

1. make sure a 40 Hz. high pass filter will not harm the music. I wouldn't actually filter it because it might not be necessary.

2. Make sure there aren't any breath pops

3. make sure the bass and kick are dead center and that nothing with lots of low-end is all the way on one side. The record will sound lots better if the mastering engineer doesn't have to force everyhing below a certain frequency to mono.


As for high frequency tracking,

1. try to make sure nothing is clipping,

2. leave off the peak limiting

3. be sure the vocal isn't sibilant. If it is a bit, make sure it's also panned dead center.

Never try to second guess the mastering engineer. Different cutting systems and styli need different specific approaches beyond the things I've suggested.

[Kenny Gioia]

It doesn't get much better than being able to have your questioned answered by "The Legend".

And they said that the Internet is for Porn.

Peace.

[mata_haze]

Brilliant,
THANK YOU VERY MUCH Bob, this finally is spreading some light on this black magic...
there are actually a couple of more specific questions...I hope you don't mind asking you ..
1) I am working on the final material (the mix is already done and cannot be retrevied, not by me anyway) so there is little I could do regarding instrument position etc...what I am doing to have an overall control is to use the M-S technique.
I am controlling the stereo image using the sides (which I'll keep very low on level as they introduce a lot of phase shitf..)and the rest of the sonic informations with the MID. do you think is a good idea?If so I'll explain my second step..
2)the main concern is to get it as loud as possible(and as well sounding as possible,although the first point is definitely the most important!) because it is going to be played in clubs by DJs..how can I achieve it?is mono the best option in order to control all the phase problems and possible in coherences and therefore get the best cut?
many thanks for your help!

[RobAcid]

i do pre-mastering for 12" every day, especialy for electronic styles.... www.robacid.de


please check to be not TOO LOUD in the RMS level..... i found -11 till -8 is the best for this type of music. then its allready ****ing loud on the floor.

[mata_haze]

Hi ROb ...
where do you usually take your master to be cut?
which studio would you suggest me?
many thanks!

[RobAcid]

for me one of the best in germany is ANDREAS KAUFELT - SCHNITTSTELLE.... good price and really great cut !!

for mastering studio, dont know... cause i am a masteringstudio

[Ricey]

another big consideration is the length of the tune. longer running times require narrower grooves to fit on a side. for more bass - make a shorter edit of the track, simple.
this is a bigger issue with 7" singles, of course. we're talking high-value real estate

[Cojo]

Originally Posted by mata_haze

Hi everybody...

CUT-->
SO what the label is trying to achieve is to get te songprinted as loud as possible especially in the low end part of the spectrum were the 63Hz region is..
now...we had a long discussion about this and I did some research regarding this aspect and as far as I am aware 63 Hz is (about) the frequency our hearth beats at..so if that particula region of frequencies is enfatized it's easier for people to go on the dance floor...
<--CUT

I just checked my pulse and wasn't 63Hz, more like 1Hz! Maby that's why I don't dance so well?



/Cojo

[mata_haze]

Originally Posted by COJO

Originally Posted by mata_haze

Hi everybody...

CUT-->
SO what the label is trying to achieve is to get te songprinted as loud as possible especially in the low end part of the spectrum were the 63Hz region is..
now...we had a long discussion about this and I did some research regarding this aspect and as far as I am aware 63 Hz is (about) the frequency our hearth beats at..so if that particula region of frequencies is enfatized it's easier for people to go on the dance floor...
<--CUT




I just checked my pulse and wasn't 63Hz, more like 1Hz! Maby that's why I don't dance so well?



/Cojo

oooops!
maybe I got it wrong...
but if you multiply 1 Hz [heathbeat] x 60 [seconds it gives you 60 beats per minute!
VERY COOL!

[cdog]

Originally Posted by mata_haze

oooops!
maybe I got it wrong...
but if you multiply 1 Hz [heathbeat] x 60 [seconds it gives you 60 beats per minute!
VERY COOL!

And everyone knows 60bpm is the PERFECT tempo for dance music!

It all makes sense now.

As an aside, you need to have a sit down with someone at your label and talk about loudness. For club music in particular, all the music is going through a brickwall limiter before it hits the amps anyway, so that Michael Jackson tune slams just as hard as Pink.

Slamming the meters on a limiter before you press the vinyl WILL NOT make your record louder in the club.

It will just make it sound shittier.

[Radiance]

Originally Posted by Ricey

another big consideration is the length of the tune. longer running times require narrower grooves to fit on a side. for more bass - make a shorter edit of the track, simple.
this is a bigger issue with 7" singles, of course. we're talking high-value real estate

For 12 inch, keep it under 8 minutes so they can still cut it on 45rpm. Sounds way better than 33rpm.

[mata_haze]

Originally Posted by cdog

And everyone knows 60bpm is the PERFECT tempo for dance music!

It all makes sense now.

ok what's the normal tempo 120?
130?
is it not a multiple of 60?
I don't know I am not an engineer or a doctor!
regarding the loudness I agree with you but I actually heard vinyls having more "volume" than others and I wonder why...

Radiance: thank you for your suuggestion but the label decided that (for commercial reasons) the disc must be cut at 33.

[Bob Olhsson]

I agree that it's very important to not stress the cutting system DAC.

I would avoid any kind of widening effects like the plague. The playback cartridge will already widen things a bit but the vertical modulation created by widening can severely limit the amount of level available before mistracking occurs.

[Thermionic]

If you're in London, and you want the ultimate in club-friendly cutting (not RMS level, but punch and peak level), then I trust you're familiar with The Exchange in Camden?

http://www.exchangemastering.co.uk/default.htm

You can't go wrong with Nilz or Graham for club cuts - their work is respected all over the globe.

Justin