Most transparent Brickwall limiter ???

[Lexicondonn]

I have been playing around with various limiters (Plugins) and all the ones I have seem to change the frequency gain compared to my original mix, to a much bigger degree then I thought. Until I started comparing them I just did not really notice how much this was!!

Typically I'll mix to around -5 -3 FS and when I use the limiters I'll hit it with no more then -8db and I always use a -0.5 ceiling because I think about cheap players that most people might listen back on.

Anyway The plugs that I have are:

Waves L2
Slate Digital FG-X
UAD Precision limiter
Ozone 3

They all colour the sound in their own way. Some boost the bottom ., some the mids and one make the top end sound like shite.... To my ears anyways. I don't recall which one does what because I was too peed to keep notes.

I think I'm sick-up and fed of the these four little pigs...They are all good in their own way. Please help shorten my learning curve....is there anything else out there that might be more transparent with out having to spend more then a grand?

Although I did have my eyes on that Pendulum Audio PL-2. How's that puppy?

Any thoughts would be nice...... thanks

[Cellotron]

Despite any hype by their developers - ALL limiters will impart some form of coloration as soon as they are actually processing - and this coloration will increase as you push them harder. The thing to do is match the coloration of each of these towards the desired end sound you have in mind when mastering (which is why I have a number of different limiters available as options). Generally the limiter is the very first processor I engage and then I make further eq choices already knowing what any spectral balance changes the limiting is in fact making.

Anyway - a couple limiters which I personally find very useful which seem you haven't demoed yet are the Voxengo Elephant and the PSP Audioware Xenon.
For a clipper that is high in distortion but retains transients well GVST GClip may also be worth trying for you.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by Lexicondonn

Typically I'll mix to around -5 -3 FS and when I use the limiters I'll hit it with no more then -8db and I always use a -0.5 ceiling because I think about cheap players that most people might listen back on.

Do you mean 8 dB of gain reduction? That's a lot
Are you processing in the the mix session, or a separate session?

[Ben F]

8dB GR! You shouldn't really limit more than 3dB at the most. That's your problem. If you limit a couple of dB they are all pretty similar, I think Ozone 4 intelligent II mode is one of the most transparent.

Get your mix right and that is all you should require. But that is a big learning curve. There is no magic plug-in.

[greggybud]

Originally Posted by Lexicondonn

Some boost the bottom ., some the mids and one make the top end sound like shite.... To my ears anyways.

They all will...if you really are at 8db gain reduction with most typical audio material.

Get your db's before it hits the limiter. And as said, with no hard rules and always exceptions, 3db is a good point to stop.

Good luck!

[Steven Slate]

I go into my analog chain then back into the workstation with a nice amount of headroom.. I don't clip the A/D at all. I usually use 8db of gain with a loudness processor, its obvious which one I use. I know of a Sterling sound mastering engineer (a really really awesome one) who says he goes into the workstation from his analog chain and usually has to add about 10db of gain with a loudness plugin.

So, just another perspective. Unless the mix is really bad, I use the least amount of processing possible during mastering. If I can get away with just eq and loudness, thats the ultimate. I'd be interested in hearing the original mix that is showing problems with the various limiters.

Steven Slate

[The Orbit Room]

I have been using the clipper in the Flux Alchemist with good results.

I can get the masters to .3dB with little work and no nasty aftertaste.

Mastering (no pun intended) all the bells in whistles on this plug can be a full time job in itself. Every job reveals a new trick on this thing.

My workflow is a PB PC to D/A thru analog rack to stepped class A gain stage feeding an A/D to a capture PC. I leave enough comfortable headroom for the A/D and arrive at the capture PC with 3-4 dB of headroom to work with.

I just did a jazz quartet and didn't use any brick wall. You can't get around not using one all the time, but the good news is that some clients are open to not having their music crushed.

Best of luck with your hunt.

[Shy]

Originally Posted by Lexicondonn

Although I did have my eyes on that Pendulum Audio PL-2. How's that puppy?

It's fantastic and great at keeping the original frequency balance.

[Gengy]

yeah!
PL-2 is a amazing limiter!!!

[Ben F]

There are more transparent ways of making RMS level over limiting...I'm sure the awesome guys at sterling even know that!

[Surbitone]

A transparent leveller, followed by a hard - clipper (like gclip) or AD clipping, followed by either Elephant 3, Izotope Ozone limiter. Make up a fair bit of gain by overloading analogue bits and pieces. I find most music is actually pretty easy to make loud if the tonal balance is spot on (unlike impact, which has to come from the mix). Like Cellotron, I engage the limiter, or make the gain up early in the chain, pre-AD first, combined with calibrated monitoring, it makes pretty light work of 'getting there' level wise whilst still sounding good* (* as it can sound at that level). thumbsup

[priko]

Originally Posted by Surbitone

A transparent leveller, followed by a hard - clipper (like gclip) or AD clipping, followed by either Elephant 3, Izotope Ozone limiter. Make up a fair bit of gain by overloading analogue bits and pieces. I find most music is actually pretty easy to make loud if the tonal balance is spot on (unlike impact, which has to come from the mix). Like Cellotron, I engage the limiter, or make the gain up early in the chain, pre-AD first, combined with calibrated monitoring, it makes pretty light work of 'getting there' level wise whilst still sounding good* (* as it can sound at that level). thumbsup

On Gclip, what % of clip do you generally use?

[Surbitone]

Originally Posted by priko

On Gclip, what % of clip do you generally use?

Depends where in the chain it is I guess, if it's the last thing, I normally set it to 96/97% if I'm working at 96k . I did use something ridiculous not to long ago, something like 70% for a band who wanted it "even louder" - pretty much lopped off most of the peaks before limiting it a few more db's with elephant. Not my cup of tea personally, but considering the circumstances, it did do the job really *nicely


*not sure if that's the right word.

[Aaron Miller]

Brick wall limiters by their very nature will change the frequency gain: whatever frequency is pushing up against the threshold will remain there, all other frequencies will continue to rise until they either peak naturally or hit the wall themselves.

I use Ozone 4's Intelligent II limiter for light mastering and it does seem very transparent. Technically it's not a brick wall limiter. It couldn't be and remain so transparent. I have no clue how it works, but I can get louder (but more naturally) with it than with the L2. That said, a good ME will put my loudness with integrity efforts tp shame.

[edva]

A couple of instances of Ozone 4 into FG-X a good starting point for me.

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by Slate Press

I go into my analog chain then back into the workstation with a nice amount of headroom.. I don't clip the A/D at all. I usually use 8db of gain with a loudness processor, its obvious which one I use. I know of a Sterling sound mastering engineer (a really really awesome one) who says he goes into the workstation from his analog chain and usually has to add about 10db of gain with a loudness plugin.

This is how I've worked for many, many, years. No 'loudness' plug but digital gain before the limiter.

I predict a new thread on 'what's the best level to the A/D converter?'

For under $200.


DC

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by Slate Press

know of a Sterling sound mastering engineer (a really really awesome one) who says he goes into the workstation from his analog chain and usually has to add about 10db of gain with a loudness plugin.

This does not necessarily by any means that he is actually applying a regular occurring 10dB of gain REDUCTION though! - a very different thing from having a couple stray very high quick peaks pushed down that amount with the vast majority not being processed beyond the 3dB or so of gain reduction the vast majority of ME's I know prefer not to push their limiters beyond.

fwiw - I have no problem if required to achieve the clients desired goal with setting the limiters to in fact get around 6 to 8dB of gain reduction occurring from plugins - but I do this without any delusions that this operation is happening "transparently" - and again I take offense when manufacturers try to mythologize that their limiters/clippers are somehow not coloring the audio when pushed this hard when it's obvious to anyone with decent monitoring able to do one button push A/B between the processed and source signals that this simply is not the fact.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by priko

On Gclip, what % of clip do you generally use?

Completely dependent on the source track and the desired end sound. Generally I set the "soft" knee control to around 10% to avoid more overt distortion. I also often use it for 1dB or so gain reduction prior to Voxengo Elephant.

If it's the final limiter I find you generally need to set the output ceiling to around 96% in order to keep intersample peak overs to an acceptable level.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[weldroid]

I tend to like how Elephant 3 colors the sound. And it might be a bit of an unorthodox solution, but if I find that I have to push E3 too much, I add some loudness with Varisaturator instead and follow that up with Elephant (no knee, stereo unlinked, sharp or classic mode, EL-UNI).

[Steven Slate]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

This does not necessarily by any means that he is actually applying a regular occurring 10dB of gain REDUCTION though! - Best regards,
Steve Berson

No, he doesn't use a brickwall limiter for 10db of gain reduction.

My simple point is that if you have a clean means of loudness enhancement, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to push a mix that has some nice headroom to a commercial mastering level, even if it needs 8 to 10 db.

[PatrikT]

Originally Posted by Slate Press

My simple point is that if you have a clean means of loudness enhancement, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to push a mix that has some nice headroom to a commercial mastering level, even if it needs 8 to 10 db.

I sometimes lower my hardware L2 threshold some 10 dB's or more, but that does not mean it has to catch any peaks or do any gain reduction. I would think that the Sterling guy refers to that kind of "boosting".

I think the L2 is a great digital gainer that one can confidently use in real time, by the way.


Best Regards
Patrik

[Lexicondonn]

Thanks for all the great comments and suggestions.

I'm applying this after the mix in Wavelab. When I say 8db I mean that I bring the threshold to about -8db so I think that translate to about 3db of gain reduction yes.

Personally I really would like to go less then this but my clients want it louder....

[wado1942]

Oy, this again. There's no way to make your mixes super loud without ruining the sound quality. None. This is why most mastering engineers are so vocal about their objections to the loudness war. You pretty much just have to live with degrading the mix for the sake of this stupid number's game if you must go that way.

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by wado1942

Oy, this again. There's no way to make your mixes super loud without ruining the sound quality. None. This is why most mastering engineers are so vocal about their objections to the loudness war.

The reality is customers are asking for it. Like it or not.

And there are certainly different approaches to getting level with a minimum of artifacts.

I assume most engineers have come in on the weekend to experiment with different techniques to achieve loudness, I know I have.


DC

[huejahfink]

In my experience, the major portable devices are output limited in line with the modern loudness 'standards' which means that given a track with a 'proper' dynamic range, most headphones just won't deliver sufficient sound to be heard over the noise of a bus ride.
I think this is also a reality - and an exceptionally important one for those markets that depend entirely on pocket players and phones.

On the flip side, jazz and classical for example, can more comfortably afford to cater to the more discerning playback crowd. Not much 14yo pocket money sales here.

[Sunim Koria]

The key to it is spreading out limiting stages throughout the whole chain, maybe equally, maybe not so equally. Just not in one place. If I'm hearing such a drastic compromise in when switching in ANY brickwall limiter I happen to have at the end of my chain then I'm simply applying too much. End of.

Best,

SK

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by dcollins

The reality is customers are asking for it. Like it or not.

And there are certainly different approaches to getting level with a minimum of artifacts.

I assume most engineers have come in on the weekend to experiment with different techniques to achieve loudness, I know I have.


DC

Oh yeah!
I've got several methods to deal with several types of mixes, as I'm sure you have too?

[Nama]

Originally Posted by dcollins

This is how I've worked for many, many, years. No 'loudness' plug but digital gain before the limiter.

Mr Colins,

Could you tell me what you mean by Digital Gain?

[huejahfink]

Turning it up in the digital domain, not in the analogue domain?

[HomeProducer]

Voxengo Elephant