Recalling Masters - How are you doing it

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by joeaudio

I've trained lots of people over the years, some have gone on to be
successful engineers. I taught all of them the importance of keeping records.

Telling a young aspiring engineer not to do this is irresponsible.
Plain and simple.

While it is irresponsible to omit this from the education of a young engineer, it is another thing to insist that an experienced professional is irresponsible for not doing things your way. It's great to explain why you think it is the better course, but I think calling it irresponsible in the latter case is overstating it.

[aleatoric]

I just keep a talking parrot in my studio. I rely on him for a lot of things but most importantly for recalls. When I am capturing I usually just yell the settings at him and when a recall comes up I count on him to remember and relay the important information back to me. Sometimes he forgets but overall it has been working out pretty well.

Currently I work completely digitally. Instant recall upon reloading a session. When and if I do get some analog gear in the future I will most certainly have some sort of recall sheet. Probably a txt file so I am not wasting a ton of paper.

It seems illogical to me to not keep track of your settings.

[wado1942]

I just take digital photos of my equipment and save it with the audio files. For plugins, I just save presets under the clients' names with the date.

[Stereophonic]

Originally Posted by Strut78

I thought It might be nice to share how we are recording the settings of our gear, signal paths etc for recalling tracks when clients request minor changes. Although most changes seem to be in relation to the sequencing of the record and not the sonics, I still find it important to have everything written down for those instances where recalling the whole signal path is required.

I am really just hoping to share what I do and to find out what others are doing. Hopefully sharing this information might provide us all with new ideas and better/more efficient ways of working.

Over the past year I have put together a one page sheet with the faceplate of each piece of my gear, my signal flow and patching as well as recording the gain of the signal path. I run many pieces of my gear at unity gain so normally it is just the last piece in the chain or my Dangerous Master that provides the gain staging in my signal path. Each song is written down on one sheet each and then any further changes are recorded on the same sheet using a different coloured pen. Here is my current sheet:

Attachment 195766

It would be great to see what everyone else is doing and to hopefully generate some new ideas.

Until a year ago I never logged my analog settings. Now I have a stack of these:

[joeaudio]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

While it is irresponsible to omit this from the education of a young engineer, it is another thing to insist that an experienced professional is irresponsible for not doing things your way. It's great to explain why you think it is the better course, but I think calling it irresponsible in the latter case is overstating it.

I would insist if I was the client. You misread. I didn't
say it was irresponsible for an engineer not to keep EQ notes. I do say it is risky, bad practise and just plain lazy. Teaching a young engineer these pratices is irresponsible.

If a client wants a redo on any particular piece of music it is my
responsibility to play the original file with the exact EQ settings that were used on that ref and apply any requested changes.

That's the way it's done in the professional mastering houses here in
The Greater New York Metropolitan Area.

Patience and craftsmanship. My first mentor taught me to apply these
priciples to mastering.

But I guess that's just for me. Everyone has the right to work the way that they see fit.
Whether it's good practise or not. It does seem from the posts here that most engineers
do keep good notes and even take the time to come up with creative ways to do so. Maybe it's an American thing.
Maybe that's why people from all over the world prefer American engineers.

[Peakly]

Originally Posted by joeaudio

If a client wants a redo on any particular piece of music it is my responsibility to play the original file with the exact EQ settings that were used on that ref and apply any requested changes.

Do you have any analog hardware in your mastering chain, or are you all in digital?

Maybe that's why people from all over the world prefer American engineers.

...?

[inlinenl]

Originally Posted by joeaudio

Maybe it's an American thing.
Maybe that's why people from all over the world prefer American engineers.

yeah, now you're talking ...

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by joeaudio

Maybe it's an American thing.
Maybe that's why people from all over the world prefer American engineers.

I do hope that's a joke...



To Peakly & Inlinenl:

I guess what baffles me about not logging settings is that I can't figure out what the benefit could possibly be. I understand the argument of "that's what I'm comfortable with"; but the effort to log settings seems so small to be outweighed by this (very subjective) benefit.

Also, assuming that one is not only doing private/indie stuff, I don't understand how one can dismiss the issue of recalls as "questionable". There's a request to recall a radio edit or mix change, or TV version pretty much every week here. Being able to do that, quickly, exact, and without much effort (and at reduced cost) is worth a lot to me (and the clients too, I'm sure).

Anyway, I respect the choice of procedure (I remember hearing a while ago that some pretty high profile engineers don't log settings either), but find it hard to understand the motivation.

[Peakly]

Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering

To Peakly & Inlinenl:

I guess what baffles me about not logging settings is that I can't figure out what the benefit could possibly be. I understand the argument of "that's what I'm comfortable with"; but the effort to log settings seems so small to be outweighed by this (very subjective) benefit.

Hey Robin,

I won't speak for Wim, but if you check post #5 there's a photo of one of his recall sheets. So clearly he is taking care of the recall part of mastering, to the extent that he needs to.

What bothered me were the accusations of arrogance, laziness, and irresponsibility that appeared to be aimed at him. I haven't had a lot of exchanges with Wim, but the times when we have talked about music and other issues I could see that not only does he have great ears and a great feel for mastering, but he's a good guy as well. He helped me with my music, and I would have felt lucky to have him master one of my projects. It didn't work out because of scheduling, but he's got serious gear, room, monitoring, and skills.

Ask Mark Trewella at Full Circle if I like recall. I'm super fussy, as several MEs on this forum already know. It's great to be able to ask for a touch more air, or a little less bottom, or whatever, and know that they will be picking up where they left off. When I'm at the mastering stage, I leave all my GML and Cranesong settings alone - that's my recall, along with digital settings in the tracks. So if I need to touch the mix, I know things will be as I left them. It's a great feeling to know that the ME can get back to where he was before, and make any adjustments from there that seem necessary.

Also, as you know, once you step into analog territory, it's never going to come up exactly like the time before. There are minute variables in there that come with using hardware, at least in my experience. I don't doubt that Wim can hear where he was, and where he needs to go, to supplement his recall sheets. I can hear like that with pianos and other aspects of music making, so it doesn't surprise me that he and other engineers know their room and gear well enough to do that.

Mychal

[synthoid]

A friend of mine visited a studio where they had a digital camera mounted in such a way that you could get a good high-res photo of the racks and patchbay for recall with a button push from the console. Seems like it would be handy to have all the photos framed and focused in exactly the same way when it comes time to actually doing the recall.

-synthoid

[inlinenl]

Hi Robin,

the only benefit on working that way, is that you copy yourself by actual listening and going deep into your own mastering cq. tools ... trying to copy your previous work is a totally different then mastering a track the first time .. the goal is set .. it has to be sounding the same way ...

well there you have your tools and your speakers, how to get there is very interesting and analyzing your previous work is good ear training. how did I clean up that mid, why .. is it just m/s is or is it good gain driving for that image ... what did I do to the sides etc. etc.

it's funny sometimes to realize it was not hard at all to get to the same sound , while mastering it for the first time took hard work/labour.. to dig out the sound , maybe a whole day to find it and recalling it in just 15min.

trying to copy a master is a valid and different way for me to train hearing/analyzing my room/gear and decision making .. just training basic craftmanship.

you could even say .. notes are for lazy engineers, this is much harder .. I hope you all get the joke on this :-)

I don't mind recall's at all , most off the time they're for free .. I see it as a service and part of the deal ...Only when guys are planning a single release most off the time they know they want/need a radio-edit / tv_version / non_vocal ... I get those packages very regular ... but they're deliverd in the same time .. maybe on albums it flows differently a bit ... but once again in those cases I make notes ..

saying that is was questionable was a bit stupid, I cannot know the motivation why something like that happens ..

okay maybe more notes making for me .....

cheers Wim

[jackthebear]

Originally Posted by joeaudio

Maybe that's why people from all over the world prefer American engineers.

I'm not American.....but I did get some training there.......and an American designed my rooms....and I do keep records.......does that count?

[William Bowden]

Originally Posted by jackthebear

I'm not American.....but I did get some training there.......and an American designed my rooms....and I do keep records.......does that count?

What, I thought in America they called you "Tiny Mantz' - steer clear my friend!

The King

[jackthebear]

Originally Posted by William Bowden

What, I thought in America they called you "Tiny Mantz' - steer clear my friend!

The King

Just in IQ Willy.....just in IQ.....

[Jerry Tubb]

A few observations:

It's ridiculous to me, that even a simple topic like "recalling masters", will inflate into an intense debate.

Whether you take notes or not, or even how you do it... simply doesn't matter, we all have our own style of working.

As with most things in life there are numerous approaches that work, perhaps infinite variations.

Naturally it is interesting to read others viewpoints on audio matters.

But to argue that any one method (on just about anything) is the correct way is ridiculous.

Some folks like to write everything down, some have really good memory recall, and some work it out by ear.

In reality most people find a good balance of various methods.

"How many lead guitar players does it take to change a light bulb", may even be worse with insignificant minutia on audio forums.

If you're working unattended, and only do a few projects per month, you may spend an extreme amount of time notating every little micro setting.

If you work attended with a busy schedule, you may quickly sketch down only the important parameters to keep things moving along.

I don't think we really need the Official Audio Forum Stamp of Approval on this topic.

Follow your inner directives, work it out for yourself, and get busy.

Cheers, JT

[streetbeats]

Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb

A few observations:

It's ridiculous to me, that even a simple topic like "recalling masters", will inflate into an intense debate.

Whether you take notes or not, or even how you do it... simply doesn't matter, we all have our own style of working.

As with most things in life there are numerous approaches that work, perhaps infinite variations.

Naturally it is interesting to read others viewpoints on audio matters.

But to argue that any one method (on just about anything) is the correct way is ridiculous.

Some folks like to write everything down, some have really good memory recall, and some work it out by ear.

In reality most people find a good balance of various methods.

"How many lead guitar players does it take to change a light bulb", may even be worse with insignificant minutia on audio forums.

If you're working unattended, and only do a few projects per month, you may spend an extreme amount of time notating every little micro setting.

If you work attended with a busy schedule, you may quickly sketch down only the important parameters to keep things moving along.

I don't think we really need the Official Audio Forum Stamp of Approval on this topic.

Follow your inner directives, work it out for yourself, and get busy.

Cheers, JT

Spot on Jerry....

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb

Naturally it is interesting to read others viewpoints on audio matters.

Very much so.

Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb

But to argue that any one method (on just about anything) is the correct way is ridiculous.

If people deliver a decent argument as well (not just preconceptions & judgment), why not have strong, specific opinions voiced too? The reasoning why one method should be objectively better than another may hold interesting and useful information; certainly I wouldn't want sincere posters to be intentionally vague just because others hold differing opinions. But I do think it's the somewhat judging tone in some posts that we can do well without.

Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb

In reality most people find a good balance of various methods.

There's a lot of truth in that. I think it's about measures and compromise, not absolutes. Practicability is the biggest factor in this.

Originally Posted by inlinenl

Hi Robin

Thanks for the reply, interesting view on things!

Originally Posted by inlinenl

you could even say .. notes are for lazy engineers, this is much harder .. I hope you all get the joke on this :-)

I agree! Which to my lazy self is a great reason to take notes

[masteringhouse]

I recently created an assignment for my students where I took a commercial track, applied a different EQ, and had them re-create the EQ settings without knowing them by trying to null their settings with the original.

I was amazed at how close some got, almost nulling completely with small variations in Q settings. I would imagine any pro here could accomplish this easily.

Even with settings I will often listen to a null with the recall to check for deviations from the original.

[Odeon-Mastering]

Originally Posted by Strut78

I would love to have just a spread sheet with just numerical values but I have a few non-mastering versions of some gear (massive passive, stc-8).

I just use a spreadsheet and although I do not have many detented knobs I use some tones and write down input and output levels...ensuring a perfect recall(ok ok near perfect).

[jackthebear]

Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb

Follow your inner directives, work it out for yourself, and get busy.

Cheers, JT

Beautifully articulated brother!!!

[joeaudio]

Originally Posted by jackthebear

I'm not American.....but I did get some training there.......and an American designed my rooms....and I do keep records.......does that count?

Yes. To me anyway. (Thanks for being aware enough to
see the tongue in the cheek)
As I said earlier, I have had the priviledge of training
several people in the craft of mastering. I tried to pass
along the proper methods that were shown to me.
I've worked in a couple of large multi-room facilities and I've
seen people fired for not following procedure.
There's enough bad information floating around.
(like "Don't worry about noting your settings you can match
by ear if you need a recall")
As seasoned pro's (some of us anyway) is it our responsibility
to pass good procedure on to the next generation?

[Paul Gold]

I always take notes, except when I forget. The song I forget to write down is always the one that needs to be recalled.

I don't think matching settings would be a problem for Joe. We both worked at a place that did that 24 hrs a day. Viva la Karaoke!

[jdg]

Originally Posted by Paul Gold

I always take notes, except when I forget. The song I forget to write down is always the one that needs to be recalled.

that happened to me just yesterday

[joeaudio]

Originally Posted by Paul Gold

I always take notes, except when I forget. The song I forget to write down is always the one that needs to be recalled.

I don't think matching settings would be a problem for Joe. We both worked at a place that did that 24 hrs a day. Viva la Karaoke!

Paul you're killing me. Can't believe that was almost 20 years ago.
I used to love watching those kick ass New York studio cats ripping it
up. Larry Campbell was my favorite. I could watch him play all day.
Everything from "A Day In The Life" to "That's Amore" done
Sony Digital. Did we keep notes?

[kiopo]

Good to see that a lot of you value it! As a consumer, it was very disheartening a few years back when a master with accidental distortion was sent to me. Upon requesting the tracks without the distortion, it became apparent that there was no way of repeating the same settings. I ended up using the distorted set simply because none of the further ones came close to the 'sound' of the first load...

= lots of unnecessary and annoying work for the engineer, longer turnaround and in the end not as great as the original impression. Keep notes!

[inlinenl]

Originally Posted by jdg

that happened to me just yesterday

now do it the sony way ...

[Paul Gold]

Originally Posted by joeaudio

I used to love watching those kick ass New York studio cats ripping it
up. Larry Campbell was my favorite. I could watch him play all day.

Same here. On a lot of those songs the original guys did the session for the new versions.

If it's got strings on it he can play it, well. I walked through the soundlock that was his corner one day. We were doing James Brown and he was absentmindedly playing the bass line to Sex Machine with his thumb and the guitar part with the rest of his fingers.

[jackthebear]

Originally Posted by joeaudio

Yes. To me anyway. (Thanks for being aware enough to
see the tongue in the cheek)


As seasoned pro's (some of us anyway) is it our responsibility
to pass good procedure on to the next generation?

Always liked NYC humour Joe.....

In answer to your question....yes.....on the proviso that anyone wants to listen....