Mastering 6000 limiting settings? on previously limited music

[mixerguy]

I have some stereo final music mixes where the music has already been limited with Massey L2007 with about 3-5 db of peak reduction already. The music is instrumental in a variety of styles.... some more dynamic.... and some less dynamic. It is NOT heavy hitting rock or similar.

Now the producers want the music to be an additional 3 db louder, overall. I am thinking i’ll use my Mastering 6000 (hardware) and the MD4 - BrickWall Limiter 2 - to peak limit the music some more.

Unfortunately it is impossible to go back to the non-peak limited versions of the mixes at this point. (I won’t go into the details, but trust me.... I have no other options)

The questions are

- can anyone suggest some good starting points for MD4 BrickWall Limiter 2 settings?

should I try the DXP in this situation? I have never used it.... suggested starting points?

any other tips?

thanks much

[PBM]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

I have some stereo final music mixes where the music has already been limited with Massey L2007 with about 3-5 db of peak reduction already. The music is instrumental in a variety of styles.... some more dynamic.... and some less dynamic. It is NOT heavy hitting rock or similar.

Now the producers want the music to be an additional 3 db louder, overall. I am thinking i’ll use my Mastering 6000 (hardware) and the MD4 - BrickWall Limiter 2 - to peak limit the music some more.

Unfortunately it is impossible to go back to the non-peak limited versions of the mixes at this point. (I won’t go into the details, but trust me.... I have no other options)

The questions are

- can anyone suggest some good starting points for MD4 BrickWall Limiter 2 settings?

should I try the DXP in this situation? I have never used it.... suggested starting points?

any other tips?

thanks much

If you want just a straight clean 3dB gain then don't use the DXP. It's a compressor that brings out the middle range of the dynamic range, so you might find yourself changing things too much. It took me a while to use the DXP on anything - and still then not much - as the dreadfully intrusive presets put me off so badly!

Try the Brickwall 2 (i.e. the stand-alone one not part of the MD4 package, set oversampling and adaptive and - I'd guess - universal mode). I've done this a few times to add an extra dB or so to pre-limited material (library CDs) but I've no idea if this would work as required in your situation, so it's just a suggestion.

Good luck,

Eric

[mixerguy]

thanks Eric!



any other thoughts from anyone?

[Ari-M.]

In this situation I would avoid DXP like the plague. DXP (being an upward expander of sorts) will reallt start to push distortion in the mid bands. I tried DXP on a hot solo piano mastering job once. Even with careful attention to overall processing, DXP was just too overbearing for the midbands. The piano became harsh and even distorted at some points. I think if the original master had been recorded/printed at sane levels, DXP would have been perfect.

That being said, I don't think you have any need to run the master you have to work with through the entire MD4 suite. Unless you want to fix some kind of problem in a specific range. You can instantiate Brickwall2 as a stand alone algo. and simply push the level there. I have done that quite a few times. I would also consider L316 (if you have it). As long as you are only using it to bump a few db, it should actually work w/o the typical artifacts.

Another option would be RMS normalization in PEAK. It is useful for the scenario you describe.

Of course none of these situations are ideal. You will always be dealing with the current peak limiting issues and artifacts, but you should be able to bump 3 to 6 db (1.5 db or so RMS) w/o any noticeable issues.

Sounds good in theory anyhow. I have been in your shoes a few times, and sometimes the results are fantastic and sometimes they take a bit more work and are less than ideal. I think it's going to depend on the needs of the music and the client.

good luck

[mixerguy]

Thanks Ari-M for the good thoughts!

thumbsup

anyone else?

[mixerguy]

and - what about using a little bit of multiband compression (MD4) before the brickwall limiter2?

good or bad idea?

[streetbeats]

Any particular reason you feel the need to use the 6000 be a software limiter? You may find that one of the software limiters (or perhaps even a combination of two different limiters) is the better tool for the job. Or not. Just advocating not ruling anything out before you hear.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by streetbeats

Any particular reason you feel the need to use the 6000 be a software limiter? You may find that one of the software limiters (or perhaps even a combination of two different limiters) is the better tool tofor the job. Or not. Just advocating not ruling anything out before you hear.

I've used my Mastering 6000 for a little bit of multiband compression, and I thought it sounded very, very good. This is why....

[kosmokrator]

try this with the 6000:

route the output of engine 1 into the input of engine 2.
Load MD4 stereo into engine 1, brickwall2 into engine 2.
Set the brickwall 2 flat (gain 0, threshold 0).
bypass all sections of MD4 (EQ, dynamics, limiter off!)
Now raise your level with the trim fader in the MD4 engine.

As transparent as it gets.

don't use DXP/multiband.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by kosmokrator

try this with the 6000:

route the output of engine 1 into the input of engine 2.
Load MD4 stereo into engine 1, brickwall2 into engine 2.
Set the brickwall 2 flat (gain 0, threshold 0).
bypass all sections of MD4 (EQ, dynamics, limiter off!)
Now raise your level with the trim fader in the MD4 engine.

As transparent as it gets.

don't use DXP/multiband.

COOL - thanks!

Looking at my MD4 - I see:

MD4 CD Master

and in decade 7: MD4 Neutral Fast Attack

obviously different starting points.... I'll play with MD4 CD Master in engine 1, as you suggest, and Brickwall 2 Flat in engine 2....

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by kosmokrator

try this with the 6000:

route the output of engine 1 into the input of engine 2.
Load MD4 stereo into engine 1, brickwall2 into engine 2.
Set the brickwall 2 flat (gain 0, threshold 0).
bypass all sections of MD4 (EQ, dynamics, limiter off!)
Now raise your level with the trim fader in the MD4 engine.

As transparent as it gets.

don't use DXP/multiband.

ok.... so... I did as you suggested... but in the engine 1 (MD4) - with all sections of MD4 bypassed... I was getting distortion - as keep in mind - this material was previously limited.

so this setup seemingly does not work in my situation.

i think i'll just use Brickwall Limiter 2 alone

- i mean..... what is the advantage of your routing scheme? I can't see any advantage. in fact - the MD4 distorts if I do things exactly the way you suggest.... unless i'm missing something?


thanks

[PBM]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

ok.... so... I did as you suggested... but in the engine 1 (MD4) - with all sections of MD4 bypassed... I was getting distortion - as keep in mind - this material was previously limited.

so this setup seemingly does not work in my situation.

i think i'll just use Brickwall Limiter 2 alone

- i mean..... what is the advantage of your routing scheme? I can't see any advantage. in fact - the MD4 distorts if I do things exactly the way you suggest.... unless i'm missing something?


thanks

I think what was being suggested is that using the MD4 before the BW2 gives you greater gain control. If it's distorting either the engine routing is not quite right (maybe both engines are feeding the master output?) or the other elements of the MD4 are not properly cancelled.

It doesn't matter what preset you engage for the MD4 if it's just for gain. The one you've chosen sounds like a parallel comp pre-set. Easiest option perhaps is to go for the `CD' option and turn the compressor button off.

Cheers,

Eric

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by PBM

I think what was being suggested is that using the MD4 before the BW2 gives you greater gain control. If it's distorting either the engine routing is not quite right (maybe both engines are feeding the master output?) or the other elements of the MD4 are not properly cancelled.

It doesn't matter what preset you engage for the MD4 if it's just for gain. The one you've chosen sounds like a parallel comp pre-set. Easiest option perhaps is to go for the `CD' option and turn the compressor button off.

Cheers,

Eric

Hi Eric
My routing is correct.
and all the sections of the MD4 are bypassed as the other poster (kosmokrator) had suggested.

and my starting preset is NOT parallel.

but think about it - if the compressor and limiter are both bypassed... (as is the EQ) and I run an already peak limited (full level) signal thru it.... and push up 4 db of gain.... of course it will distort!

This is why I don't understand the logic of kosmokrator's suggestion.

I ended up just using (Mastering 6000) Brickwall Limiter 2 on it's own... and it worked out just fine.

[kosmokrator]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

Hi Eric
My routing is correct.
and all the sections of the MD4 are bypassed as the other poster (kosmokrator) had suggested.

and my starting preset is NOT parallel.

but think about it - if the compressor and limiter are both bypassed... (as is the EQ) and I run an already peak limited (full level) signal thru it.... and push up 4 db of gain.... of course it will distort!

This is why I don't understand the logic of kosmokrator's suggestion.

I ended up just using (Mastering 6000) Brickwall Limiter 2 on it's own... and it worked out just fine.

Did you route the engines 1 into engine 2 in the TC6000? This does not work with external routing (f.e. using the 2 engines as seperate inserts in your DAW).
Make also sure all other sections of the MD4 are bypassed.Limiter has to be set to off. Also make sure you start with unity gain throughout the MD4-chain. (Trim 0, all gain 0 etc.)

Then slowly raise trim.
It's funny how far you can raise the trim without audible distortion. It's actually my main stage to achieve transparent loudness in mastering.
Of course this is highly dependent on source material, it's possible that it doesn't work with your material.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by kosmokrator

Did you route the engines 1 into engine 2 in the TC6000? ........

....Make also sure all other sections of the MD4 are bypassed.Limiter has to be set to off. Also make sure you start with unity gain throughout the MD4-chain. (Trim 0, all gain 0 etc.)
.......

yes.

yes.

I got audible distortion very quickly.

as I said - the material had already been peak limited - perhaps this is the difference?

and... why not go right to Brickwall Limiter 2 in my situation? It worked well for me (on it's own)

[kosmokrator]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

yes.

yes.

I got audible distortion very quickly.

as I said - the material had already been peak limited - perhaps this is the difference?

and... why not go right to Brickwall Limiter 2 in my situation? It worked well for me (on it's own)

Well, of course you can use BW2 on it's own. If it worked well, all is fine, right?
I just told you how I achieve the most transparent gain changes with the TC6000. Could be that it doesn't work for everyone.
For me, it always sounds more transparent than limiting.
As always, YMMV. Try it with a normal mix one day and maybe you get what I mean.